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Post by hrootbeer on Jan 5, 2011 20:30:37 GMT -5
I remember reading on here awhile back about dialogue tags and the word "said". At the time, I agreed largely with everyone about how annoying this word is and that almost any other word is better...or even better than that, was to tag dialogue with actions or have no tags at all unless it wasn't obvious who was speaking.
Now I'm feeling a little differently. Is "said" really so bad? Is it better to write "she explained" or "she demanded" or "she exclaimed"? Sometimes, all she did was "say", right?
My fear when getting away from the word "said" as a dialogue tag, is that sometimes writers tend toward overly purple prose...use of adjectives and adverbial phrases to provide active voice when none is really necessary.
Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't want to read "he said" and "she said" after every single line of dialogue. That would be very annoying and amateurish. But isn't it equally annoying to end every bit of dialogue with "she spoke with an annoyance," or "she glared, angrily" or "she replied assuredly"? And (to me) isn't it even worse to just write strings of dialogue like a play but without any indication of who has spoken, leaving the reader to just guess?
I personally stress over every bit of dialogue I include in my stories. I want the exchanges between characters to be realistic and I want them to move the story forward, too. I also want it to be clear who has spoken and in what tone. I like to show instead of tell, but I'm never sure if I do that enough.
I asked on my blog, but I will ask here as well: Is anyone else as neurotic and analytical about their dialogue writing? What are your worries and frustrations? Does anyone have any dialogue advice?
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dinuriel
Full Member
Torturing characters? Me? Nooo...
Posts: 374
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Post by dinuriel on Jan 5, 2011 20:52:59 GMT -5
I think it's mainly a preference thing. Personally, as a reader, all I really care about is a good story--but as a writer, I get a little stricter in that regard. The idea behind "said" is that it's supposed to be so boring it's invisible, which works for most readers (for me personally, it sticks out like a sore thumb, but like all of my problems, I'm going to blame that on religious private schooling). What I usually do is try to avoid dialogue tags whenever possible by surrounding the dialogue with a strong enough narrative to give it some sort of context and a bit of hintage as to how the line is said. When I do feel like I have to use a dialogue tag for whatever reason, I'll use anything but "said"--but almost never coupled with an adverb That's just me though. A lot of people these days like "said" because of the theoretical invisibility, but as I mentioned earlier, every "said" on a page might as well be written in neon lights for me personally. But I suppose it's a moot point because style isn't a huge thing for me as a reader; just as long as I don't see multiple "he said/she said"s in a row with no narrative in between, I can restrain myself from curling up into fetal position and being forced to relive all those horrible books they made me read in school I think the key with dialogue is to just go with the flow. When you're in the character's head, you just know what they're going to say and it works
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Post by celebkiriedhel on Jan 5, 2011 22:08:06 GMT -5
I'm not sure that I'd go with a fixed rule. Writing to me isn't about rules - it's about using what works, and sometimes breaking the rules works, and sometimes it doesn't. It's about making the reader get into the story. If he said, she said works - then go with it. If it doesn't - try something else. Just don't use redundancies - that's what pulls me out of the flow so quick you don't have time to blink... e.g. of redundancies - "Hi" he greeted. "I get what you are saying" he replied. I'm not a big fan of using adverbs, unless it makes sense. I'd rather have the body language described, and let me work out the adverbingly. e.g. "You lout!" She said accusingly. vs. "You lout!" She poked my breastbone, her face red with rage. There's more of a picture with the second. That being said - sometimes adverbs work. I'm reminded of something Nanny Og said: If you're going to break the rules - break them hard!
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Post by hrootbeer on Jan 5, 2011 22:12:39 GMT -5
Maybe part of my problem is that I have a journalist's background. When writing news or even feature stories, the default tag is always 'said'. In fact, editors often change tags to 'said'.
The thing is, newspapers and magazines and other print media all have a reading level of 5th to 7th grade on average. So is 'said' preferable simply because it is easy?
I honestly don't know, but I was struggling with it. I can't tell you how many times I read, re-read, and revised my last update because of the dialogue, though. It stressed me out and obviously is still bothering me.
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Post by celebkiriedhel on Jan 5, 2011 22:38:03 GMT -5
Yeah - that's the thing about Journalism. They use 'said' because it's the default, but because also it's an unexpressive and uncolourful word. While writing is an expressive and colourful art form. I'm reminded of something that Stella Gibbons said in Cold Comfort Farm... "The life of a journalist is poor, nasty, brutish, and short. So is his style" And yes. I frequently quote other people. Why do you ask?
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Post by thelunarfox on Jan 5, 2011 23:07:38 GMT -5
Actually, there wasn't really a consensus on it. The general thought right now (as in professionally not on the board) is that "said" is better than anything else because it's not distracting. Sometimes writers go over board with the dialogue tags and it becomes distracting, but "said" is a nice simple tag that doesn't distract and should melt into the text for most readers because you want the dialogue to shine and don't want to clutter it up with lots of extraneous words attached to it. I think Laura says it best though. I'm in the "said" camp - I don't find it boring, I just find it useful. I prefer said or nothing at all. (With the very occasional use of a shout, or whisper.) Anything else will stunt your language and hold you back from your full written potential. There's almost always a better way to get across what you're trying to show than to throw it in a dialogue phrase. I do think we were pretty much agreed that the best thing to do is to not bother with the dialogue tags and then you don't have to worry about rules or preferences. Instead, use the words around the dialog to illustrate the scene better. Don't say, "'What?' he exclaimed." Try, "He sat up slowly. 'What?'" In the second you can see him moving and speaking which makes the picture clearer. With the rest of the scene filled out, you'd hopefully get the picture that he's a bit taken aback. At least you'd be getting more of a picture than if I'd used a dialog tag.
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Post by mmmcheezy225 on Jan 5, 2011 23:30:58 GMT -5
Dialogue has always been a tricky part of writing for me, and it's not just tags either. I've tried using more exciting dialogue tags, but those just seem...tacky, if used too often. Am I the only one who feels that way? Hmm.
But I also get annoyed when the word "said" is used during a particularly high-energy scene. It just takes away from the thrill. And if I don't use dialogue tags at all, I tend to get "lost". I'm constantly changing and switching it up.
If I could write stories in a strict narrative and still hold a reader's attention, I think I'd do it. ;D
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Post by laura on Jan 5, 2011 23:38:14 GMT -5
Yeah, ditto what Lunar said!
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lepifera
Junior Member
"....."
Posts: 93
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Post by lepifera on Jan 6, 2011 0:30:50 GMT -5
A story reads better when the dialogues are blended seamlessly with the narrative. Yet since "said" does stick out like a sore thumb, it could be a useful signal for emphasizing the importance of what is being spoken.
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Post by hrootbeer on Jan 6, 2011 9:29:11 GMT -5
Dialogue has always been a tricky part of writing for me, and it's not just tags either. I've tried using more exciting dialogue tags, but those just seem...tacky, if used too often. Am I the only one who feels that way? Hmm. But I also get annoyed when the word "said" is used during a particularly high-energy scene. It just takes away from the thrill. And if I don't use dialogue tags at all, I tend to get "lost". I'm constantly changing and switching it up. If I could write stories in a strict narrative and still hold a reader's attention, I think I'd do it. ;D Me too!
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Post by Lorsty on Jan 6, 2011 10:58:09 GMT -5
This is pretty much what I think about dialog. I like it when I can "ignore" the tags completely because the scene is so well written that I can feel how the dialog is to be said. That is, of course, when I'm a reader.
When I'm on the other side of the spectrum I do use "said" often because it's a simple word. That way the tag will not steal the essence of the dialog by taking away attention from what was said, something that, in my opinion, is the most important part of a dialog.
What I usually do with my works is to write a dialog with nothing but "he said/she said" and then I keep on writing the rest of the scene. Once that is done I sit down and revise the dialog and decide if "said" is an appropriate tag for that particular line of dialog, if I should change it or remove it.
I do that because to me "said" is so simple, common and easy that it has a very low value, i.e. I can do with it whatever I want without feeling I'm taking away something important from my story.
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Post by thelunarfox on Jan 6, 2011 15:58:50 GMT -5
People, don't be scared of the dialog tags. Seriously. Like with anything else in life the rule should be simply "use in moderation." You don't have to cut them all out or relegate yourself to only using "said" or only using interesting words. Do what you need to get done, read it the way you'd read any book and imagine what it's like for you if you were reading it. That's what I do.
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Post by raquelaroden on Jan 6, 2011 18:41:03 GMT -5
I'd rather run the risk of irritating someone with one too many "said"s than irritating them by making them guess who is talking. Really, I hardly notice the "said"s. I do notice it if they do some of the other things ("she said angrily"--even though, I'm pretty sure I do this crap all the time...eh).
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Post by sb on Jan 6, 2011 19:06:49 GMT -5
What Rachel said. Using the word said instead of: Rachel lowered her gaze onto the forum and found a way to make her meaning clear. Or: Rachel gazed out the window and saw a flicker on her screen, drawing her attention back from the heaving waves. Or: Slowly rising from her bed while peacocks (ok forget the peacocks) while strange white birds hurled themselves at her window, Rachel woke to realize she should respond.
I've added a warning to my blog. My writing is a hobby and I'm not going to worry about dialog tags, but I did enjoy adding the warning about them.
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Post by laura on Jan 6, 2011 19:28:34 GMT -5
Beth, LMAO at the warning on your blog!
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Post by raquelaroden on Jan 6, 2011 19:30:12 GMT -5
LOL Beth! That is a great warning.
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Post by Sarahjane on Jan 7, 2011 20:59:22 GMT -5
I used to think it was better to use descriptive and unusually dialogue tags, but a few months ago I read On Writing by Stephen King, and he believes writers should stick to "said" or not use any tag. This is probably influenced by his career as a journalist (LOL at the Stella Gibbons' quote!), but when I started paying attention to how writers render dialogue, I noticed that too many adverbs or too many "declared," "announced," "retorted," etc. are very distracting. I think the reader should be able to tell from the dialogue whether it was declared, announced, or retorted without the writer giving stage directions. For me, I've taken his advice as a challenge to write more descriptive dialogue that doesn't need tags or adverbs to describe it.
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Post by bunnylita on Jan 7, 2011 21:48:19 GMT -5
I read the same thing, and have started to adjust my tags. I use said a lot more than I used to. Apparently writers can find it repetitive and annoying to use said all the time, but readers don't notice as much. I also noticed that I personally never really read tags anyway. I skip right on over them most of the time.
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Post by laura on Jan 7, 2011 22:11:52 GMT -5
I used to think it was better to use descriptive and unusually dialogue tags, but a few months ago I read On Writing by Stephen King, and he believes writers should stick to "said" or not use any tag. Anything Stephen King says is golden in my book!
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Post by Stacy on Jan 7, 2011 23:06:03 GMT -5
I don't know - I just listen to the words and the rhythm. And, as far back as I have records, for me that's meant "no tags". Except one, of course. "My wife," said the voice, "was a very good cook."Geez that still gives me chills. But yeah - even back when I was a teenager I didn't use tags, so I figure that's just part of my in born natural style.
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