dinuriel
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Torturing characters? Me? Nooo...
Posts: 374
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Post by dinuriel on Feb 18, 2011 11:45:46 GMT -5
From your experience, what have you found to be the differences? I've heard a few people (no one here) say that you shouldn't try to write a main character of the opposite sex, but I don't agree with this. Personally--as a cisgender, heterosexual female--I find it a lot easier to write males. I think the reason for this is that writing female characters can be... kind of dangerous territory? You write a female character and people say she's too weak. You write a strong female character and people say she's too manly. You write a strong, non-manly female character and people say she's not realistic. It's not so much that it's difficult to write female characters, it seems, but sometimes I think that audiences don't actually want the strong, well-balanced female characters they claim to crave; it's like society is genuinely unprepared for characters who break out of their assigned boxes. That's just my theory, though? I'm sure there are other factors at play, but I'm up way too earlier and I was up way too late last night. I still haven't caught up on everyone's work, but I've seen snippets of most of yours, and can I just say that I don't think anyone here has any problem writing characters of either sex? You all do beautiful work
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Post by thelunarfox on Feb 18, 2011 12:27:18 GMT -5
You are SO right. It is difficult to write female characters sometimes. There is such a fine line with them and they're always being scrutinized.
I've heard that bit of advice too, but I say screw it. And some later advice I've heard/read has said the same thing. Write what you're going to write, handle each character like a human.
On a personal note, I prefer to write girls and first person. I've noticed that when I write about the guys, I slip into third person more easily. It could partially be the characters I'm working with. Most of the males are a little more detached than the females.
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Post by bex on Feb 18, 2011 15:52:56 GMT -5
I've always preferred writing male characters to female. One person told me once that I didn't write very strong female characters - that they were always overly dependent on the males. I haven't really noticed that myself, but I have found that in my current project, I don't care as much for the female characters as I do the males (the lone exception being Marnie). The males are just more compelling and interesting for me to delve into as a writer.
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Post by laura on Feb 18, 2011 16:47:40 GMT -5
I think I feel equally nervous and (strangely) sometimes comfortable writing both sexes. Though female readers are more harsh on female characters, in a way that I don't think male readers are harsh on male characters. But I am always petrified any time a male reader reads my male characters, lol! (Though that isn't very often.)
There really isn't the same problem with weak female characters in literary fiction though, not the way I've seen genre readers tear apart the leading female characters. Maybe because literary fiction is about portraying reality, and in reality, sometimes women are weak? Some of my characters are weak, and some are strong, but really most of them are both weak and strong in different ways. I'm not really sure what a "strong" female character is. And if I read about a woman who was all strong, I don't think I'd be very interested in her story.
Same goes for a male character, I think.
But I do write both men and women, even male 1st person POV. Can't say I'm any good at it, but dude, I'll try to write anything, lol!
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Post by raquelaroden on Feb 18, 2011 18:33:04 GMT -5
I haven't attempted to write from a male point of view, but I plan to do so. When I started out with the story I'm working on now, I thought that since I was writing about a person trying to do something I know little about in real life (work as a private detective) that I would counterbalance my fumbling with those details with something I did know: the point of view of at least a certain type of female. Ed's inner dialogue is a lot like my own, even though her actions and views sometimes aren't. It's like I wanted to test the waters of sharing my writing with others by starting off kinda easy, and once I felt more sure of myself, then I could try for other points of view or situations that I was uncertain I'd be able to successfully portray.
I guess I didn't even think about whether my female lead character would be considered too weak or too strong, because as Laura points out, I had no intention of her being just one way all the time. There are certain aspects of her that are weak, and others that are strong, and still others that are changing as the story progresses. I never wanted a stable, unchanging character, because the way she's changing is a huge part of the story.
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Post by Velvet on Feb 18, 2011 19:00:23 GMT -5
When I write for male characters I find myself wondering, am I transferring my images of "the ideal male" onto him? Or maybe he's too much in touch with his feminine side? Is he the stereotypical type 'A' male I've subconciously grown to expect in action movies and thrillers? How do you find the 'right' voice for a gender not your own? Honestly, I've just been playing it by ear, or gut. If my story calls for a strong, egotistical person then I write them that way - male or female, it doesn't matter. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. I'm slowly learning to distance myself from my characters. Since I'm a female, when I write a female lead, I try to instill traits in her diametrically opposite my own. It helps me to keep my focus on 'her' and to keep me from bleeding my personality into who she's suppose to be. Although, it is difficult at times. It's much easier to keep my focus on the character when I write a male character. I've read some popular fiction written by female authors who don't have an objective voice (in my opinion) when writing their male leads. The men are too forward thinking, mostly metro-males or too enlightened to be believable. While there are men like that, they're not so many that you can find them in every neighborhood. Can you write a good male lead who 1) thinks women should stay home and not work? 2) doesn't feel women should be on the police force etc? Can you write him and make him not only believable but likable too? I'm not sure I can. The first real male lead I created ended up being transgender because I just couldn't get the voice. His/her husband was the most forward thinking, docile creature ever. Although the story was well received it left me feeling slightly inadequate. I couldn't wait to begin writing for their son to really get the trick of writing for men right. Unfortunately my game blew up, I lost my sims and never finished but there ya go. Stacy knows what story I'm referring to. . I watched a made-for-television movie, Spartacus (not the tv show) - in it, Spartacus was strong, intellectual, approved of equal rights for women, allowed his 'wife' to sit in on war meetings etc. All along I was thinking "Come on! Get real." Here you have this essentially barbaric guy, living in the days when women were little more than chattel, they were slaves for goodness sake and yet, the writers threw this ultra-enlightened dude into the duds of a gladiator and expected us to swallow him whole! It made me sick and I couldn't help thinking, what a waste of good material. Hmmm, I shall cease and desist before I write an essay. Thanks dinuriel for putting this up. It's nudge me into keeping my focus.
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Post by laura on Feb 18, 2011 19:32:52 GMT -5
Velvet, oooh, there's another good point - a woman's ideal image of man. I'm also always very careful to make sure I'm not slotting my own fantasy men into the personalities of my male characters. I mean, I do, lol! But not all of my fantasies all into one man at the same time. The things is, what women want men to be, and what men actually are, are two very different things, as we all know, lol! But in some genres (like romance, erotica, or chick-lit), the idealized man is something the reader is actually looking forward to reading about. They don't want to read stories about the kind of men who really exist out there in the world. If they did, they'd be reading literary fiction Can you write a good male lead who 1) thinks women should stay home and not work? 2) doesn't feel women should be on the police force etc? Can you write him and make him not only believable but likable too? Believable and likable, yes, I think so. I don't know if any of my male characters think those things specifically, but a couple/few of my men definitely take a more old-fashioned stance and opinion about what women *should* do, lol! (Max, Matt, or Danny.) I can't say if they're believable and likable though. I believe and like them. I guess if the reader believes and likes them depends on whether they're looking for that idealized man, or a realistic one.
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Post by celebkiriedhel on Feb 18, 2011 19:37:21 GMT -5
You know - I've never really thought about it. I kind of figure that if I'm writing a main character then the gender goes with whatever I need to bring to the story, and the attitudes and behaviours match the period of time that I'm writing about. I think I'm more tentative about writing stories about guys in love though. I've watched the men in my life - and come to the conclusion that I really don't understand how it works for them. But being a geek myself - there are some guy traits that I have NO problem writing! You guys know me though - I take all those rules as a guideline only. I've been thinking about this lately, whether it's just that I don't believe they have the authority to set the rules, or whether I'm just pig-headed. I've come to the conclusion that when it comes to story-telling, all those rules are just opinions and my opinions are equally valid - and since it's MY story, my opinions carry more weight. So yes. I am that opinionated, and stubborn and probably a bit know-it-all too when it comes to my stories. Writing an anti-Velvet can still be writing about yourself though - it's your dark-side, like Jung's thingy. Writing a guy is easier because you can write him independant of your own experiences. Just a thought.
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Post by Velvet on Feb 18, 2011 21:15:30 GMT -5
Laura, you're right, ultimately, it's the reader who determines whether or not a character is likable to 'them'. Hehe, I like that Kiri, "anti-Velvet". I don't think I explained myself clearly (I'm a little tired ) but let me try again. I meant to say, while there are traits my female characters have that are very different from my own, there are always bits of me in my characters (male and female). This is why I'm so careful about 'how much' of me I allow to come through. Does that make sense? I like your way of thinking, "I've come to the conclusion that when it comes to story-telling, all those rules are just opinions and my opinions are equally valid..." You can't go wrong with that. Our opinion is as equally valid as any other writer's, most especially when it comes to our own work.
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dinuriel
Full Member
Torturing characters? Me? Nooo...
Posts: 374
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Post by dinuriel on Feb 19, 2011 0:32:49 GMT -5
Sorry all--I left the house pretty much right after I posted this in the morning >.< I guess the question is... male or female, what is a strong character? A strong character to me is someone who grows. Maybe they slip up in certain ways and they have their flaws, but they keep things interesting and at the end of the story, they're not quite the same person as they were at the start. Or maybe that would be best defined as a strongly-written character? Because if a "strong character" is supposed to have more to do with the character's personality than anything else--someone proactive and confident who never takes crap from anyone--then I have seen "strong" characters both strongly-written and weakly-written; I've also seen "weak" characters both strongly-written and weakly-written. But yeah, it seems that females are more heavily scrutinized, but I guess at the end of the day, you can't please everyone with any given character, so just do what feels right I guess if the reader believes and likes them depends on whether they're looking for that idealized man, or a realistic one. Yeah, definitely. And not everyone has the same ideal man. These days, there seems to be this idea that a man should dote over his woman day and night... but personally, I would find a guy like that totally stifling (not to mention, kind of a pussy). I need my space! I've come to the conclusion that when it comes to story-telling, all those rules are just opinions and my opinions are equally valid - and since it's MY story, my opinions carry more weight. So yes. I am that opinionated, and stubborn and probably a bit know-it-all too when it comes to my stories. THIS. Also: I think I'm more tentative about writing stories about guys in love though. I've watched the men in my life - and come to the conclusion that I really don't understand how it works for them. I actually have more trouble writing women in love. I have an easier time describing the physical stuff from the female point of view--how the sex feels, the male form, etc.--but the emotional stuff? Err... not so much. Maybe it's just because I'm tragically unromantic, or maybe it's just because for a woman, I have a remarkably easy time separating sex from emotions. I imagine there are writers in similar situations there, other females as well as males who are maybe more attuned the the predominantly emotional romance. (Maybe this explains why all my characters are sex addicts? ) I watched a made-for-television movie, Spartacus (not the tv show) - in it, Spartacus was strong, intellectual, approved of equal rights for women, allowed his 'wife' to sit in on war meetings etc. All along I was thinking "Come on! Get real." Here you have this essentially barbaric guy, living in the days when women were little more than chattel, they were slaves for goodness sake and yet, the writers threw this ultra-enlightened dude into the duds of a gladiator and expected us to swallow him whole! It made me sick and I couldn't help thinking, what a waste of good material. Hmmm, I shall cease and desist before I write an essay. Thanks dinuriel for putting this up. It's nudge me into keeping my focus. Heheheh... I totally do that And really, if we're talking Sim stories, I make no apologies--it's my recreational writing, after all. Would I do that in a novel I was planning on selling? No... but then again, I make a point of not setting my novels in places/times that actually existed (even if I was actually any good at research, I'm just too damn lazy and don't really enjoy it ). So I can't say that bothers me because then I run the risk of sounding like a hypocrite, although I do see your point. But I like to think that my cast is varied enough to make the occasional exception (although of course I could be way off here--in general, I believe that people are fundamentally poor judges of their own work, whether they oversell or undersell it). Glad you liked the topic
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Post by hrootbeer on Feb 19, 2011 11:32:18 GMT -5
I guess the question is... male or female, what is a strong character? A strong character to me is someone who grows. This I completely agree with. Doesn't matter the gender if the character grows. Personally, I feel comfortable writing both genders. I had a creative writing professor once ask me why I was writing a male character since I was female. I just shrugged at her. The character in question was a military guy whose grandmother was dying and he had to decide whether or not to turn off the machines that were breathing for her. I wrote it from his POV because he was the young one. I liked the idea of contrasting her frailty with his strength, but his memories of her revealed the strength she used to have and how he gained a lot from her. The professor was caught up in the fact that the male was strong and the female was weak and didn't get that his memories of her showed her strength. Anyway, I could go on and on about this particular professor. So, to pull myself back to my point, I agree that gender isn't the issue for strong characters. They have to grow--have flaws, gain wisdom, make mistakes, over come challenges, face hardship and rewards, etc. Personally, I like writing males and females. I am not sure I'm accurate in my portrayal of either one, but I try to make them all seem "real".
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Post by sb on Feb 19, 2011 12:08:21 GMT -5
You know, I guess I don't get it. Do professors ask male students why they are writing about females? Maybe Shakespeare shouldn't have written Romeo and Juliet since Juliet was a girl. It's absolute sexist BS.
I find certain types of personalities difficult to write but it doesn't matter if they are male or female. I'm not afraid of getting male motivations wrong just because it's a man. If I get it wrong, then I do; I'm as apt to get it wrong for a woman as I am for a man.
Women get slammed by other women period. The first thing you hear is a howl of 'MARY SUE!!'. I don't know if it's general female bitchiness or insecurity but you can count on it happening.
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Post by Stacy on Feb 19, 2011 12:11:13 GMT -5
You know, I guess I don't get it. Do professors ask male students why they are writing about females? Maybe Shakespeare shouldn't have written Romeo and Juliet since Juliet was a girl. It's absolute sexist BS. I find certain types of personalities difficult to write but it doesn't matter if they are male or female. I'm not afraid of getting male motivations wrong just because it's a man. If I get it wrong, then I do; I'm as apt to get it wrong for a woman as I am for a man. Women get slammed by other women period. The first thing you hear is a howl of 'MARY SUE!!'. I don't know if it's general female bitchiness or insecurity but you can count on it happening. QFT! (Quoted for Truth)
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dinuriel
Full Member
Torturing characters? Me? Nooo...
Posts: 374
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Post by dinuriel on Feb 19, 2011 12:23:05 GMT -5
Agreed!
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Post by infinitygoddess on Feb 19, 2011 12:40:53 GMT -5
Heh. I'm someone who writes about men a majority of the time, as most of my main characters are male. I suppose in a way I can sort of relate to them because I don't fit into the gender norm of what is considered feminine (then again, Sergei Mikhailachev doesn't necessarily fit into the gender norm of what is considered "masculine", either, considering he goes around dressed as a woman).
That's not to say that I don't have some women in there too. I just don't have very many of them, but when I do write them, they tend to vary.
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Post by hrootbeer on Feb 19, 2011 13:07:44 GMT -5
I just had a thought on this topic that I want to share. Most of the time, stories are about relationships. Male and female, male and male, female and female. I don't think it matters which perspective one takes, if the relationships are true, then the character shines through. I can think of great male writers who write fantastic women. I can also think of great women writers who write horrible women (Ayn Rand is one...her women are 2-dimensional). The difference is that the man writing about women gets how women interact. Women who write strong men, I think, get how men communicate. To me, writing is a study of humanity. Good writers don't limit themselves to one half of humanity. That's why I think Shakespeare was and is still so successful. His characters are all (male and female) wonderfully complex and realistic (except Kate in ToS...she should have clocked Petruchio and told him to go to Hades). This is also why I think the Twilight saga will not last the test of time and Harry Potter will. No offense to those who love Twilight, but the characters are so flat and one-note. Bella, Edward, Jacob, none of them grow. Their interactions, to me, were forced and flawed...too extreme. To give Stephanie Meyers credit, though, her non-Twilight book was a lot better. She fixed her rookie mistakes in The Host. Ok, enough of my two cents. Relationships...that was my point *Edit for spelling
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Post by celebkiriedhel on Feb 20, 2011 2:54:10 GMT -5
I heartily agree with Beth's statement. I also heartily agree with Heather's statement. (Although I've always liked Kate in ToS - I get where she's coming from, and to be honest I wouldn't have clocked Petruchio either) Velvet - I get what you were meaning
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Post by rad on Feb 20, 2011 15:06:47 GMT -5
One of the things I find hardest with Taken is the number of female characters; I always intended it to be about 50/50 but we met female characters first, so the guys still mostly feel on the back foot.
I don't have a problem writing either gender, after all, I don't know what it's like to be 'a man' or 'a woman', I only know what it's like to be me.
I know my friends and I don't generally fit into stereotypically normative gender roles... but I am suspicious as to whether anyone does, really.
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Post by Velvet on Feb 21, 2011 12:17:27 GMT -5
Found this link while searching for something else and immediately thought about this thread. It's very informative and as I read I found myself realizing that much of what's said is true. For instance my character, Thornton is always interrupting and getting on with what he has to say. At first I thought it was a character flaw but I started thinking, maybe it's something I picked up from the men around me? Not consciously thinking about, just getting it right because men have a tendency to interrupt. You'll see what I mean here: tmarchini.wordpress.com/2010/09/30/differences-in-male-and-female-speech/
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Post by thelunarfox on Feb 21, 2011 13:18:23 GMT -5
That's an awesome link, Velvet. Wow, this is an interesting topic. On one hand, no, the people in my life do not fit in the stereotypes. The men I know are mostly push overs. The one really strong man I know, the more classic guy (he's a cowboy from Texas with hat and boots and horses even) is married to my sister who's also a strong stubborn woman and they butt heads all the time, lol. There is some truth to stereotypes, but we also have to be careful not to be limited by them. That's why I don't really break my characters apart by gender. The link in the article talks about different motives for speaking. Like the way a man is more direct and wants to get the point across. I do accept that as a generalization that I have come across in real life. But I adapt it per person/character and I do look at their motives. Like I keep thinking of Paula and Brandon together and how they interact. He's the older brother, the one charged with introducing her to this new life. So I see him being direct and firm, yet he's also patient. She's unsure, so I see her using lots of filler and pauses (at least at first). Brandon wouldn't interrupt her though just because he's a male character. He'd wait patiently for her to finish because he'd want to earn her trust and make her feel comfortable. I guess the question is... male or female, what is a strong character? A strong character to me is someone who grows. Maybe they slip up in certain ways and they have their flaws, but they keep things interesting and at the end of the story, they're not quite the same person as they were at the start. Or maybe that would be best defined as a strongly-written character? Because if a "strong character" is supposed to have more to do with the character's personality than anything else--someone proactive and confident who never takes crap from anyone--then I have seen "strong" characters both strongly-written and weakly-written; I've also seen "weak" characters both strongly-written and weakly-written. But yeah, it seems that females are more heavily scrutinized, but I guess at the end of the day, you can't please everyone with any given character, so just do what feels right You mean like what's a good and interesting character? Because I can't parse that into male or female because gender doesn't matter when it comes to a good, well written character that grows with a story. That's completely separate. It's like asking about apples and talking about oranges. Although I will say that I do enjoy playing with the masculine vs. feminine and power in my stories. (Clearly, lol.) It's a fun topic to fiddle around with, although disturbing and worrisome sometimes. Like am I stereotyping? I'm sure I am going to piss people off who think I'm writing about girls being weak when I'm really trying to show strength in unexpected places.
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