dinuriel
Full Member
Torturing characters? Me? Nooo...
Posts: 374
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Post by dinuriel on Mar 17, 2011 11:31:50 GMT -5
I never really enjoyed English/Language Arts class much.
Oddly enough, it got especially dull after I started writing (during my preteen years). I used to love books as a kid, and now that I'm done with English lit classes, I'm finally beginning to regain my liking for them... but when I had to read fiction for school, I found I just lost my liking for it. And maybe some of the books they made us read--especially at my public high school, where there wasn't any hidden agenda with the reading selection--were actually good, but they got painted with the wrong brush in my mind and I never enjoyed them and probably won't if I ever tried to read them again. I never wanted to look for themes and symbols, nor did it come easily for me. I just wanted to read a damn story.
Maybe most of my problem came from the fact that I was almost always the only kid in the class who did creative writing for fun. There have been instances where people have read my work and pointed out reoccurring themes and motifs that I'd never intentionally added and never even noticed; likewise, there have been times where people have seen things that I know for a fact weren't there. I remember sitting in class while the teacher and some of the better ELA students discussed the intentions of the book and imagining the late authors rolling in their graves.
Maybe what bothered me about English class was that there seemed to be this assumption that every book was written with themes in mind--and what irked me most about this was that as far as I'm aware, none of my teachers had ever tried to actually write a book. Sometimes the story comes first and the themes make themselves known later. Sometimes a writer just wants to write.
How about you? Have you or your readers noticed any reoccurring themes in your stories? Did you write with these in mind, or did they just emerge as the story took shape?
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Post by Lorsty on Mar 17, 2011 14:06:52 GMT -5
Applicability is a beautiful thing. One of the things I love to do in the internet (next to browsing tvtropes and deviantArt) is to browse forums about any movie, game or book I finished, and read the many interpretations of other watchers, players or readers. This always makes me go all "damn, I thought the same about <insert random character, event, place, puppy here>!" or "woah! I never looked at it that way but it makes sense!". This means I'm obsessed with trying to find themes, hidden depths and symbolism everywhere. But my love for applicability means I'm a supporter of the " death of the author", that is, I believe that the intention or interpretation of the author is no more important than that of the readers. Of course, as a writer that is very complicated to me because I do have a specific theme in mind whenever I write something, but I don't really want to impose my ideas and interpretations on the readers. So to answer the question, I always write with a specific theme in mind, but I try to make it hard to find out what theme is it... and that makes me happy.
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Post by thelunarfox on Mar 17, 2011 15:56:02 GMT -5
Someone on my blog list just posted up an entry all about this and she's a "dead author" supporter too.
I guess I fall on that as well. I don't believe that every device that an author introduces has an intentional theme. I know I don't, but upon reflection, they're there. Like darkness. It's all over the place in Paula's story. She's scared of it, Jimmy walks her through it to take her to Henri's, Alex walks her through it to take her to where ever they're heading now. Not to mention the extra themes of the darkness within people like Jimmy, Henri, Brandon, and all the people around her.
None of that was intentional on my part.
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Post by laura on Mar 17, 2011 16:09:59 GMT -5
I don't know about other writers, but I know personally, I don't set out to write about some pre-determined thing. In fact, most of the time, I don't even know what my story is really about until I'm at least half through it already. It's only after my first draft that I'm able to pick out all my big-picture literary themes and abouts. Then once I do know, I can go back in my second draft and refine all those things so that they look like actual themes that I'd intended But I think a lot of writers do that. And I was just reading a blog the other day (sorry, I lost the link) about a mystery writer who had looked back over her book and found literary themes she never intended to be there. It's just the way it works in writing. As you write a cohesive story, certain trends pop up again and again, and there you have it - a theme! Now, I don't know about this "dead author" thing, lol! I understand readers can see what they want to see once a story is finished, but I also think I'd feel pretty weird if they all thought I wrote a story about something that I clearly didn't.
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pinkfiend1
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Missing everyone
Posts: 467
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Post by pinkfiend1 on Mar 17, 2011 20:01:14 GMT -5
I have this wonderful habit of putting things into a story to dig me out of a hole, then I'm stuck with them and they have to take on this whole theme thing in the background to keep them going as they always end up being big dramatic things, because as everyone I know will tell you I'm about as subtle as a knife, and they kind of have to hum along building up more steam and becoming a more essential part of plot. I'll start the idea without thinking it through, and then once it's begun I can only see the end and finding a proper way to keep it going is always a struggle. It's why I'm trying with my more storyish sims to play it out for a long while so I can produce a more cohesive thing, that doesn't feel all slap dash and haphazard and so I can work out how to complete things properly and not have ten billlion conflicting stories all in one go.
But that's probably off on a tangent. In school I was never good at seeing beyond the obvious and finding the hidden meanings, I was very literal except when I wrote things. It's why I never really like Shakespeares' sonnets. But then once something is there hidden I keep seeing it in a lot of cases. Nobody will ever convince me that Wuthering Heights was a love story. I remember writing a poem about the Titanic. It was on tv, but I had it taped anyway so I went upstairs and wrote a poem about it. Unsinkable I called it. I showed it to a teacher and she thought it was about how you sometimes refer to people as being unsinkable. I remember being quite excited in a quiet way, but quite confused that she would see something I knew nothing about. I think it was a compliment really because she got something out of it even if I hadn't meant it to be there.
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Post by sb on Mar 17, 2011 20:18:53 GMT -5
I guess someone will have to define 'theme'. How is 'theme' different from plot? Is it the same thing or some kind of different thing?
If you write with no idea where you're going, then you do what I do and that's not going to get you anywhere but in a ditch looking for someone with a truck to help you out of it while you stand there looking stupid and feeling worse than stupid. Is a theme something like it has to have a lot of windows or trees? Or water?
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Post by laura on Mar 17, 2011 20:46:36 GMT -5
Beth, LMAO! *hugs you to pieces* Let me see if I can remember this... *goes to dig through Wikipedia* The plot is what your characters want, and how they try to get it (either failing or succeeding). Theme is closer to what the story is about, on a more vague and encompassing level. I'll use Leila as an example, since she's on my brain right now. Leila's conflict is that she wants to love Corbin, but she doesn't want to hurt her family to do it. So her plot then is the choices she makes in trying to accomplish that. But her themes are something that emerge through that conflict and plot, and the story I've written around it, and it's something I kind of had to step outside the story and dig around to find. I would say her themes are of regret, and mistakes, and forgiveness, and renewal. I just made those up off the top of my head - maybe somebody else would say her story is about something different. The difference between a theme and a motif though? lol! I always got this one wrong, but I *think* a motif is the symbolic element of the theme, like the representation of it? Like if the theme was marriage, then the motif would be wedding rings as a symbol? This wiki is a decent explanation of it all. Basically... plot = action motif = symbols and patterns theme = the message, and/or what the story is about
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Post by sb on Mar 17, 2011 21:55:53 GMT -5
Laura, I am an idiot in search of a point that's probably on the top of my head. I am so sorry to even bother anybody here and this is the last time I do it, I promise.
I'm going to make people mad. So a romance novel is a plot (man meets girl; conflict; man gets girl) and the theme is love conquers all. Right? I am not a Harry Potter fan but I did read the books and I'm going to use them since most people have read them. The plot is Harry goes to school and learns to be a wizard and does whatever the hell he does and the theme is love conquers all.
Your work is a lot more nuanced than Harry Potter.
I'm trying to come up with a book where a theme trumps plot. Almost anything by Margaret Atwood. Robber Bride for example.
Am I getting closer?
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Post by laura on Mar 17, 2011 22:14:43 GMT -5
Oooh, I thought of one where theme trumps plot - The Unbearable Lightness of Being, lol! <-- that book has *no* plot, and about 1000% theme! (And took me about 9 months to finish, lol!)
The only Margaret Atwood I've read so far (The Handmaid's Tale) felt plotty enough to me (though still huge on theme), and I can't vouch for Harry Potter. But I think probably most of the books I can think of, even literary classics, were pretty equal on plot and theme.
The Sound and the Fury might be another huge on theme with not much plot?
Not to say that's necessarily a bad thing. I liked both of those books. It just makes them really tough to get through - like reading 500 pages of poetry, lol!
ETA: and yes, you're right, about the romance plot and theme.
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Post by sb on Mar 17, 2011 22:24:12 GMT -5
almost anything by Faulkner has no plot and all theme...or maybe that's just because I couldn't get past the theme or because I was forced to read it and felt like I was sweating through all his themes.
Handmaid's Tale was very plotty and heavy on the theme too.
Ursula LeGuin. A lot of her work is theme and very little plot of sort of wavery plot and I love every single word.
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Post by laura on Mar 17, 2011 22:32:35 GMT -5
Ah, one more, then I'm going to bed.
Lorrie Moore! I *adore* her stuff, literature up to your eyeballs and her writing is like reading pure bliss, but the woman couldn't write a plot to save her life, lol!
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lepifera
Junior Member
"....."
Posts: 93
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Post by lepifera on Mar 18, 2011 6:19:00 GMT -5
I would belong to the 'death of the author' club. That is why I feel reluctant to respond to comments for the short pieces I have written. I want to leave it completely open for interpretations. Instead of responding to comments, I just repay the commenter with subsequent visits to their websites.
There is a limit to open interpretations though. Even though there may be hidden meanings which an author himself/herself was not aware of, some interpretations would still be way off the marks.
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Post by mdpthatsme on Mar 18, 2011 12:23:32 GMT -5
dinuriel: *squeek* I hate reading! I really do. I have never ever ever ever had a love for it. But I love luv luvz writing, does that seem strange? I find the more they "make" students read the more the students are going to hate it. My younger brother use to love reading, but when he got into the third grade they started making them have to get accelerated reader points so he started hating it. Now it's very difficult to get him to read anything. Even if a writer doesn't put anything into "underlining" meanings, readers will find them. I'm very plotty and don't worry about themes. People will find very different themes for the same piece of writing. It's all on how you've been trained to look between the lines. If you don't, then you don't dwell on themes. If you know what to look for then you are going to find all the little things that the writer may or may not have intended to put into the story. Cheerios
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pinkfiend1
Full Member
Missing everyone
Posts: 467
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Post by pinkfiend1 on Mar 18, 2011 16:35:20 GMT -5
Hey Harry Potter was not just love conquers all. It was apart the price of war, about losing those you love, death, revenge, friendship, betrayal, sacrifices, love in all it's many forms, and all wrapped into a book designed to appeal to children as well as adults.
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bria
New Member
Peace, Love, Joy
Posts: 19
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Post by bria on Mar 28, 2011 21:13:56 GMT -5
In my stories imparticular, I never have any true intentions. All I have is a set idea and the story takes off from there.
What I like to do with other stories is after reading that book or chapter is attempt to figure out the author's purpose was and why the character did what they did and who did it effect, if anyone at all.
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Post by celebkiriedhel on Apr 1, 2011 19:04:49 GMT -5
I think everyone's books has themes - whether they are put in there intentionally or sub-consciously by the writer or the reader or both. They are the things that are going through the writer's heart when they're doing the writing. I think some stories have themes, and we know they have themes but we can't articulate them until the readers read and interpret them too.
With intentions - I see that as different to themes. They are conscious pathways that the author wants to go down. And sincerely? All the author can do is write their path, and wait to see where their readers go.
Intentions don't have to be preaching or themes - they can be just ideas or even plain old plot - but every author has a picture in their head of what a character is like and whether the choices they make are smart or not.
And also - every writer is a reader of their own work too. So it's hard to say that the author's intentions are meaningless if you are saying that what the reader gets out of it is important.
Here endeth my rambling.
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Post by mdpthatsme on Apr 3, 2011 18:31:34 GMT -5
I love that!!!
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