on writing race/ethnicity/culture/social class/rel

[mmmcheezy225]

First of all, I agree with everything you said. Writing about a story that takes place in our world definitely requires a lot more effort. More than I'm willing to put in, if we're being honest here.

Do you feel comfortable writing from the point of view of a race/ethnicity/culture/social class/religion different from your own in your stories? If so, what is your process in doing that?
I've been writing from the viewpoint of different "races" (or as I like to say in regards to the sims, "skin colors") for awhile now. I'm not purebred white, although I do have white ancestors. I'm also not filthy rich. Daisy, one of my characters, is both of those things...as far as the reader's know. *wink wink*
I'd say that I am comfortable with it, but for me, Noble Lake is an alternate reality. Social class is different, tension between skin colors is different (and not all that common), religions are different, and ethnicities are different. I still inject real-life situations into the stories, I just simmify them first.

Have you ever read something written about your own race/culture/etc. that offended you? No need to name names or point fingers (please!), but if you can, what was the reason it offended you?
Yes, definitely. None of the stories or statements were from here, just to get that out of the way. Actually, I've never physically read anything regarding race and the sims that offended me, it's always something outside of the sims. Usually, what really pisses me off is making over-generalized and offensive statements about a race, when you know nothing, or very little, about that race. Same goes for religions, social status, ethnicities, sexes, etc.

I'm a very angry person.

[thelunarfox]

I think my characters have more worries on their head right now than skin color.

Plus, I don't believe that people who are bigoted are going to be very obvious about it. Like this one woman I know IRL. She is definitely a true bigot, but no one ever knows until they start talking to her. She isn't malicious about it, but sometimes the things that come out of her mouth make my jaw drop. But if she didn't slip and say one of those weird things, you would never ever know. She gets along great with her neighbors, both who have darker skin and are from two different cultures.

Once she asked me about my ethnicity, and I told her I was Puerto Rican and German. And she smiled sweetly and said, "Oh, well I like the German part." I just laughed my ass off about it later. I know she didn't mean it to be malicious, she was really just making conversation.


I think that's sort of where we slip. Most people have their own prejudices, and they aren't even aware of it. So I don't think racism is always obvious and out in the open. I think it's sometimes so subtle we might not even be aware of it. I'm sure Pat and her father have dealt with it, because I see their skin color as very different from others, and I wonder how that's possible. But I don't see people like spitting at them or calling them names.


Also, Hannah, lol! Yes, I would definitely see that as something of a very telling detail about Hannah. She probably would be doing it to push her mother a little. And I think in that way, it's another important detail to the story. Or at least to the character.


But I totally agree it's important to be aware of this stuff in our own writing.

[heredoncove]

I actually don't think that EA do any non-anglo faces justice at all. Asian faces like Malaysian, Philippine, Indonesian, Indian - are not represented. The faces in WA for Egyptian and Chinese - aren't. The only thing they really got right was the sliders for skin tone.

I'm not giving EA too many props but in TS2 at least they tried even though they came up with these hideous caricatures of faces. The only reason I think there is decent representation of some Asians is because of the Asian community that likes to Sims even though, and any one can call me to the carpet on this, they have their own prejudices. I've almost never seen an "Asian" skin tone that goes darker than a tan.

That's like the issue I have with Hannah (from my novel) and her boyfriends. I see them as non-white (of all varieties) in my head, but why, and what does that mean? Maybe it has more to do with Hannah's character than it does the boyfriends themselves? First, I don't think she'd be discriminating in that way, but second, I also bet she gets a small rise out of seeing if her mother would be bothered by it, lol! <-- oh, that sounds terrible, doesn't it? But it's a very real thing that some girls (and boys) do.

I think that sometimes it can be ok not to know. I don't think most people could pick out -if they do- why they favor one race romantically over another especially if it's over their own. I think there are so many little factors that would come into play that would just leave the person with a giant 'I don't know'. Maybe it's perceptions about socioeconomic mobility, cultural similarities or differences that are attractive, etc.

I never thought about that, well in terms of my writing. It makes me wonder whether Elise was the first Black girl Fabrice ever dated or why does Kal continue to date women who look nothing like him and can possibly leave him over something as simple as skin color. Does it even matter in the large scheme of things?

I wonder if our willingness to deal with race/ethnicity/etc or make it a real factor in our stories has to do with where we stand as writers on the cultural/racial/ethnic spectrum.

[laura]

This thread has been very eye-opening, especially in terms of my Hannah, lol! So I suppose I do have a real and valid reason for including the one non-white character I happen to have in my novel. And I even know now why it matters and where that is going. Sometimes it really helps just talking things out loud.

But there's still this one question standing for me: as a "white" writer, can I have any other ethnicity of characters in my story *without* having a reason for it? Can I write a character that's black, or Asian, or Mexican, or whatever, and have it be just because they are?

If we want to turn this around, I write "white" characters ALL the time, but I never feel obligated to dig into their particular recipe of whiteness to see what that means for them. White is comprised of so many things, and some of them are very different. Sometimes I will dig into white heritage, but if I do, it's long after the character has been formed in my mind. A character pops up in my head and she's just white, or maybe she's just black, or mixed, or whatever. I don't always have a reason for why - sometimes later I'll find a reason why (as I just did with Hannah and her boyfriends), but what if I never found a reason why? Can I no longer write that character?

At one point, I think I was entertaining the idea of making a novel of some of my LH characters, which would include my character Beau. (I haven't entirely given up on that idea yet.) But in LH he has dark skin, and given the social differences in the world I've created there, it doesn't really affect him very much in the way he lives his life.

But if I were to write his character in our present time, would I still be able to write him as a dark-skinned young man? For no other reason than that he just is?

This is something I'm starting to notice, as I look back on a lot of the published fiction on my bookshelves - writers of all backgrounds tend write characters who look the same way they do. I wonder if it's because we think we're not allowed to write anything else? Do we feel we couldn't do it justice? Are we afraid of stepping on toes?

[dinuriel]

I'll admit that I kept trying to reply to this thread throughout last night, but kept chickening out.

I'm speaking as an observer, so if anything I say offends anyone, please know that I'm very sorry and that was never my intention. If you think part of this should be edited, please let me know and I'll fix it.

Do you feel comfortable writing from the point of view of a race/ethnicity/culture/social class/religion different from your own in your stories? If so, what is your process in doing that?
Well, I wouldn't say I feel uncomfortable, but I don't know how much that really says.

Particularly in my offline works, I do have characters with different ethnicities and skin colors and what not, but... hmm, I'm not really sure how to say this. Well, I don't write about casual racism. What I mean there is that racism is only ever a part of my stories if it's going to be a major theme and is going to provide some sort of struggle for a protagonist, whether they themselves are of a different race or are close to someone who is. Different races are present, sure, but unless I'm going to address it, none of the other characters are going to make a big deal of it.

I know that's not realistic, because there are plenty of racists in real life and it seems like it will unfortunately always be a struggle, but... I don't know. I see my writing as a bit of an escape--for myself, and hopefully for readers as well--and I don't want that sort of ugliness in it unless it's addressed as the problem it is.

I think it has something to do with my upbringing. I'm mostly of assorted WASPish ancestry; my dad is like a quarter Jewish, but other than that, we're not a minority. I grew up in a largely white-washed area--mainly white upper-middle class white-collar conservatives, and the attitude was a bit backward. I wouldn't call my mother a racist, but she is... "racially aware", if that makes any sense. Like, when she was asking about my friends from university and where they were all from, I mentioned that one was from Jamaica and her response was "Oh, so she's black?". My grandparents are even worse in that regard--I love them, but I don't see why they seem to have that problem. Maybe it's their age?

The city I grew up in has a ton of baseless racism. A club downtown once hit national news for not letting non-whites in, for example. A lot of times, I've been waiting in line at some fast food place or whatnot and people have been complaining about the service, saying shit like "This is what happens when you let these people ruin a Canadian business". I actually once dumped a guy for being a racist pig (and then he retaliated by saying he didn't want to be with a "cheap Jew whore" anyway). Most of the authority figures around when I was growing up were all about stricter immigration policies and forcing people to learn English and conform to white Canadian culture.

I think it's getting a little more progressive in that area, but change isn't immediate

So, that's why I don't like to write about racism unless it's a major theme in the story.

And I should also note that when I do address racism, it's usually directed toward a fictional race. It's not that I think all forms of discrimination are the same or that all discriminated groups have suffered in the same way, it's just that I don't think my white ass will ever really understand how it feels for African Americans/Canadians, Asians, Jews, etc. and I don't think I could do their stories justice.

Wow, that was really long and rant-like. Sorry.

Have you ever read something written about your own race/culture/etc. that offended you? No need to name names or point fingers (please!), but if you can, what was the reason it offended you?
About my own race? Like I said, I'm mostly of WASP ancestry. I don't claim to be well-read, but as far as I've seen, the only "offensive" stuff about white people in literature seems to be that they're cast as racists, which I don't take offense to because A) I have known people like that in the present and I know that historically, prejudices against non-whites have reached even greater extremes and B) these books never imply that all white people are racist--just the ones doing the persecuting.

I have been offended by reading stuff about other races, though, and other religions (I'm an agnostic deist, but I was raised as a Protestant) and people of other sexual orientations. The most offensive book I've ever read? The Bible. Not that I have anything against Christianity or any other religion--I just think that a lot has been distorted through translation and interpretation and that religious texts should be read with a wary eye.

So... I guess that's my answer? Sorry if anything I said offended anyone

[laura]

Dec 5, 2010 14:23:11 GMT -5 @illandrya said:

You're right, if there is going to be diversity, it should be genuine.

How do you decide what is genuine diversity? Is it what you notice in your workplace? your neighbourhood? your city? Is it what the Bureau of Statistics tells you is the percentage of this race over that?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I really would like to know people's thought processes on this. I've seen organisations go to such extremes to ensure that they have a genuine racial mix that it became discriminatory.

I agree about the pro-diversity discrimination. I've seen that too.

And by "genuine diversity" I just meant not a token gesture. Like not, "Let's throw in some diversity here because we've got too many white characters," lol! Not that.

[thelunarfox]

Dec 5, 2010 14:29:21 GMT -5 @laura said:

But if I were to write his character in our present time, would I still be able to write him as a dark-skinned young man? For no other reason than that he just is?

Why not?

My best friend IRL has dark skin, and the only time that's really mattered was when she stayed with family in Oakland and quite a few people accused her of "acting white." But here at home, she would never have been accused of that. She's just herself. IRL the only reason she has dark skin is because her parents do, and while that does give us and our families different stories and even gives us some different social experiences, overall we're similar people.

If I were to write a story about us, her skin color might just be a detail like any other detail. Now if I were to start writing about our families, things might change a little. (Her father's from Georgia and her mother has roots in Louisiana, and I've noticed that makes a difference between her family and mine.) But even then, there are things about her parents as people that are just normal things that aren't tied to race or ethnicity. Like her mother is an amazing cook, which has ties in her family background but isn't exclusive. I mean, just because she has family in New Orleans doesn't make her a good cook. I'm sure she's a good cook because her mother taught her, and because of where they're from they happen to have some amazing recipes which my friend has also picked up and uses when she decides to experiment in the kitchen.

[laura]

Well, I know I actually could. In my blog I can, and I am. But in publishing, could I? And is it socially acceptable to? It would be a brave thing to attempt. Even braver than attempting a male narrator of my same race, which is already scary, and is something I am actually doing!

Whether I like it or not, it then becomes a statement. And it's not just a book anymore, but it stands for something. It's held to an enormous level of scrutiny. It's talked about, and held up to the light, and examined, and at the end, some of them pass and others don't.

And the difference between a story about your friend, and fiction, is like you said, she didn't get to choose what skin color she was born into. When you create a character, you do get to choose. And you'd better believe, even if I don't want to ask, "Well, *why* did you make him dark-skinned?" My publishers will be asking. They'll say, "Why not just make him white then?"

There's a very real thing in publishing called "whitewashing" where non-white authors are given white-looking characters on their covers, if race isn't a notable subject in the book. If their characters could be taken either way, the publisher will "whitewash" the book to try to sell to a white audience. And those authors are understandably pissed!

And with that going on, how am I supposed to assume that me, a pale little white girl, is going to get away with writing a black man? lol!

(I think it's clear that it's also possible that it's the publishing industry that's all wrong.)

I don't think I'm just being paranoid (though it's possible I am, lol!). It's truly not something you see very often at all, or at least not in contemporary literary fiction.

I'm curious to know if writers of non-white ethnicities would have so much hesitation before attempting to write a white character?

Feel free to tell me I'm crazy, lol!

[ETA: and for the record, I am sick, and running a fever, and incredibly tired, so I hope this didn't come across as aggressive, or insensitive, or any other thing other than just some honest rambling.]

[thelunarfox]

You're crazy.

And you're also not.

But I think there's thinking about it and being aware and thinking way too much about it and I honestly think sometimes that we do think too much about the issue and never really see the issue. We worry about the wrong things and then we end up missing the important things.

And if we're so worried about this, then how do we function? Your job is to just write and write to the best of your ability. That should be all you worry about ideally. Of course I think you need to look at the other issues too. It's good to be aware of you own possible walls when you go to write.

But I don't believe everything is a statement, and it shouldn't be. It's like Stacy was saying earlier how she had an S4 legacy founder and people thanked her for it and in that way fluff helps. Sometimes I think we have to be able to do things without thinking about it or what it could mean.


Of course I am clearly not very sensitive to any of this stuff. I'm a kid from a limbo world where my skin is too pale to be considered "of color" and yet too tan to really be white. So I pretty much say screw everyone, I'm gonna do what I feel I need to do and worry about it later on.



Also, I agree, the publishing industry (and many other industries) are the ones with the problem.

ETA: I also feel as if I'm rambling since I can't really speak about publishing since I don't know anything about that. So perhaps I do have my head in the clouds, but it is nice there, lol.

[qui]

Dec 5, 2010 22:08:55 GMT -5 @thelunarfox said:

So I pretty much say screw everyone, I'm gonna do what I feel I need to do and worry about it later on.

AMEN! I wasn't going to comment on this thread because I felt like I had nothing important to add. My views have been stated through most of the posts on this thread but your comment really summed it up.

[Stacy]

Man, I never can get around to answering specific questions in these threads with questions, lol.

I was thinking about the class bit just now, since Grace brought it up on the way home from dinner. I was threatening to bust out the Marxist class analysis, lol.

I am upper working class. My parents were factory workers - Daddy died when I was seven, as I'm sure most of you know already but hey, and my mother did pretty well raising me by herself. We weren't poor, but nowhere near middle class.

My community was also mostly upper working class. I think this is one part of why I didn't get picked on in school, by the way - we didn't associate intelligence and good grades with competition for resources the way middle class people apparently do. Really - I grew up culturally socialist. Which goes a long way to explaining how I became politically socialist.

BTW - I believe Surry County is more lower working class now, post NAFTA. Most of the factories left (including my mother's), leaving Wal-Mart and other service jobs as the main sources of employment.

And thinking about what I write - it's all my same economic class. Seth's high school is completely based on my high school, except more drama and meaner kids. His father worked in a factory, although granted a paint factory so probably more skilled and paid better than my mother, who boarded socks. His mother I see as maybe like an administrative assistant.

I honestly don't think I could write a character from higher up the economic food chain. I did some research on the cultural differences between classes when I had the idea that my background may have contributed to my social problems in the Sims community. I came to the conclusion that it did indeed have something to do with it.

Class Culture Comparison

Told ya I was raised to be a socialist! And this is why the whole idea of me being arrogant and elitist and concerns about social status hit me from left field, because like I've said plenty of times before - I did not grow up in that sort of environment. No one IRL has ever told me that I was arrogant or full of myself or elitist because I got good grades and read certain books and used certain words and took the SAT in 7th grade and scored high enough on the verbal part to go to Duke's TIP program. At home that was just...part of who I was, and most people didn't feel threatened by it.

So yeah - I just don't think I could write a middle class or higher character. Because I was nurtured in a completely different way and my brain works differently and I communicate differently and I have different values.

When I go to someone's house and check out their books and I see a lot of financial/corporate/someone ate my cheese but it's cool because I have a periwinkle parachute type books, it makes me feel weird and itchy. There is a mental gulf there that I cannot cross. That I will not cross, because to do so would violate the values that I hold most dear. I am xNFP, hear me roar!

I pride myself on my empathy, but it's just...the differences are so great that I don't know if I could ever get over them and really truly inhabit the mind of a character from a higher social class.

And I need to go to bed now. More later - probably in my LJ and not here.

Oh, quick edit before bed - I used to hang out on some political forums that were mostly populated by middle class and upper middle class people, and the differences were really evident there. I couldn't have a real discussion with the other posters because our frames of reference were radically different and we used the same words to mean different concepts and...if it was a Venn diagram there would have been their conception of existence and my conception of existence and there would not have been any overlapping parts. And how can you really truly get into the skin and write from the mind of a character whose brain is an alien landscape where you can't breathe?

[celebkiriedhel]

..if it was a Venn diagram there would have been their conception of existence and my conception of existence and there would not have been any overlapping parts.

I couldn't resist it: then there would be no chance of a cardigan! (referencing the venn diagram of sethness).

[laura]

Dec 7, 2010 1:10:16 GMT -5 Stacy said:

Oh, quick edit before bed - I used to hang out on some political forums that were mostly populated by middle class and upper middle class people, and the differences were really evident there. I couldn't have a real discussion with the other posters because our frames of reference were radically different and we used the same words to mean different concepts and...if it was a Venn diagram there would have been their conception of existence and my conception of existence and there would not have been any overlapping parts. And how can you really truly get into the skin and write from the mind of a character whose brain is an alien landscape where you can't breathe?

Thanks for that website - there's a lot to dig into, but I'm finding it very interesting so far. Especially the discussions of the different groups of women in classes, and what it means.

I think you make a really important point, that as long as you can get into the head of, and understand, a certain character, and what it means to be that character in the world, then it can work.

But if not, then yeah, it can't truly be authentic. And LOL, you describe it perfectly!

[choco]

This thread is great because I want to give some of my characters' personalities to be a result of their upbringing. I know that we're all affected by how we've grown up because of our background. Sometimes I wonder if it's inescapable.

I'm in the process of writing about two sisters who are both Asian and there's a noticeable difference in how they treat things especially in terms of family and dealing with each other. I'm aware that a lot of eastern cultures are mostly collective, as drilled into my head through a few psychology classes. Seeing as how I'm not Asian I don't want to write anything too disrespectful or too far reaching. Due to this the sisters' relationship, can it be seen as something that might be mostly familial responsible and obligation?