Dialogue

[dinuriel]

It probably does have a lot to do with style. I've been using fewer and fewer dialogue tags lately and I find that's been working for me, but tonight I took a piece of writing that had a few tags and replaced them all with "said", just to see how I liked it. I felt... physically nauseous. I already mentioned that I have some unfortunate associations with the word "said" as a dialogue tag, but I don't think that was all it was in this case. I just don't think that word is compatible with my style at all, which explains better than anything else why I haven't used that tag in a good seven or eight years.

But that's just me--I'm well aware that other people feel the same way about non-"said" tags, and since most of us seem to prefer no tags at all whenever possible, I figure it's a moot point.

[Stacy]

OMG! Hoopty said it might work just as well without the tag, but I was all "NO it needs the pause and the breath and the space and the reference to the paragraph above it with all the voice stuff!" but now that I think about it...

Oh man. Do I go back and edit my most favorite freaking line in Valley?

[thelunarfox]

Jan 8, 2011 0:24:39 GMT -5 Stacy said:

OMG! Hoopty said it might work just as well without the tag, but I was all "NO it needs the pause and the breath and the space and the reference to the paragraph above it with all the voice stuff!" but now that I think about it...

Oh man. Do I go back and edit my most favorite freaking line in Valley?

I agree with you. It does need the pause. That's how I read it, and it's very Seth to take his time saying such a simple and meaningful phrase.



Also, Bunnylita, true, I've noticed that I don't read the tags either really.

In fact, while reading the last of the Hunger Games Trilogy, I was keeping an eye out for this, and she uses more interesting tags, not just "said." But she never over uses them, and it blends well with her style.

Basically, like with anything, there isn't a one size fits all.

[hrootbeer]

Jan 7, 2011 23:51:39 GMT -5 @illandrya said:

Apart from the fact that I'm starting to think my newfound focus on finding an alternative to dialogue tags may just be procrastination in disguise, I'm actually quite pleased with the results.

I've decided to experiment on my next Veronika update, remove as many as possible (if not all) of the dialogue tags and see what happens.

33 lines of dialogue, currently sitting on 6 with tags (3 with said and 3 with something else). Have to say, I'm liking the results. It's a lot more work, but I think it might actually have improved my writing. Then again I'm biased, I wrote it *lol*

That's an interesting exercise. I think I'll try it with my next update. In my last one, with all of the dialogue, I started out with very little and added things in where I felt they needed to be there. But since publishing, I have read through and found quite a few that I wish I had taken out or changed. Next time I'm going to be super deliberate. I hope to better results.

[blackdaisies]

I wrote out one of my chapters in full narrative. It was definitely a little more liberating than the style I'm currently using, but for my story it just didn't work. I'll post it here one of these days. I noticed I did have a habit of adding descriptive adjectives. I think it's good to at least think about these things though, it does help.

Most of you may know, I use no tags. Most of my text is dialogue and I use the pictures to describe for the most part. However, I do face a challenge when I actually do have to describe how a character is speaking, in which case I add another descriptive line, which I think tends to look awkward.

Example:
James looked down and lowered his voice to a whisper.
James: Dude, your fly is undone.

vs.

James looked down at George. "Dude," he whispered. "Your fly is undone."

To me it looks strange, and I'm hoping to get better ideas how to do this without going into full script form (i.e. James: *looks down and whispers*) or using tags.

[sb]

Actually Mela, it doesn't look strange. I do not know how you do it, because I tried and failed spectacularly, but you do. Adding the single line of descriptive text above the dialog works for you.

[blackdaisies]

Jan 16, 2011 17:33:56 GMT -5 @sb said:

Actually Mela, it doesn't look strange. I do not know how you do it, because I tried and failed spectacularly, but you do. Adding the single line of descriptive text above the dialog works for you.

You don't think so? It works sometimes, but to me, it just kind of kills the flow of the dialog in my opinion. There are times when I want the pause in the flow, as in Stacy's example, but it's hard to illustrate that. I guess I'm always looking at better ways to do things without completely changing the story style.

As for you, I don't think you "failed" when you tried the script method. I think you did an excellent job, it was well written and the dialog was true to the characters. In my opinion, it just didn't suit the overall style of the story. I think it was awesome that you did go out of your style though. It's something I've been trying to do, but I've been too lazy/chicken to go for it.

[sb]

You can pause it by inserting the descriptive text between the script, if you want to. I don't see any problem with the way you've been writing it. It flows just fine.

I don't have anything to lose by trying and failing so there's no courage involved.

[themctavishams]

I will admit to getting a little stressed about the dialogue tags when the subject came up before And you're right, I'm not sure it was ever "resolved" with a clear yes or no answer. So I tried it. I wrote an entire chapter with a LOT of dialogue in it, and tried valiantly to decrease my tags where I didn't feel they were necessary. And it was a really fun, and challenging exercise.

I did, however, hear from a very good friend (who is going through the publication process right now) that "said" is the preferred tag of a LOT of editors, because it's a tag that is invisible to most readers. She and I had a long email about this, because I was curious... but she told me that her editors have been changing her tags back to "said" a lot where she would have used more descriptors like "exclaimed" "cried" "muttered"... etc. Where they weren't doing away with them ENTIRELY, they were definitely hacking them down to a bare minimum, and using "said" in their place.

So, again, i think we're back to the preference thing. I, personally, like the challenge a little in breaking out of the "s/he said" mold... but I am now not AFRAID to use it if I feel like I need to, because that's what the editors are apparently wanting.

All in all, trust YOUR instincts. If you think a "said" needs to go there, then put it there. If you notice that all your dialogue tags are saids, then change it up. But when the day is done, it's YOUR writing, and it is ultimately your choice as well.

[dinuriel]

I like your conclusion--all in all, it's the author's decision, and it shouldn't be swayed by current trends or templates or ideas of how one "should" write. There are no "shoulds" in art.

I nearly had a heart attack just now when you said that your friend's editors were changing her tags, though. I'm not sure I'll ever publish, and more often than not these days I don't use tags at all but I have gone nearly an entire decade without a "said" tag in any of my work and I do believe it might kill me if an editor slipped one in (I won't ramble on about why I hate that tag again, because I'm sure everyone here is sick of that story). Personally, I think that's overstepping their boundaries; an editor's job should be to correct careless spelling and grammatical errors, not to distort the author's intended words.

[thelunarfox]

Jan 17, 2011 13:49:12 GMT -5 dinuriel said:

Personally, I think that's overstepping their boundaries; an editor's job should be to correct careless spelling and grammatical errors, not to distort the author's intended words.

I think this could be a discussion all its own. If you're even thinking about traditional publishing at all, there's no way your work will get through those gates without some change-- probably a lot-- and that's only if they accept your work in the first place.

If the editor doesn't change it, someone else along the way probably will in order to make it fit somewhere so that they can market it and sell it. I don't blame them; it is just a fact of life and doing business.


I'm thinking that self-publishing/independent publishing is the way to go. You get control of your own works and you get the majority of the profit, but you have to make sure that you put out a product worthy of being bought, so it's still not easy.

[celebkiriedhel]

I had a friend who published - and the editor did way more than correct spelling/grammar.

There were chapter rewrites, lists of things that did and didn't work, word count changes, as well as the spelling and grammar checks. It was quite a long process, and my friend actually ended up re-writing about 40% of the book.

But to be fair - both he and I (and the editor) thought it was a better book after the edit.

[laura in the car]

Jan 17, 2011 14:04:16 GMT -5 @thelunarfox said:

Jan 17, 2011 13:49:12 GMT -5 dinuriel said:

Personally, I think that's overstepping their boundaries; an editor's job should be to correct careless spelling and grammatical errors, not to distort the author's intended words.

I think this could be a discussion all its own. If you're even thinking about traditional publishing at all, there's no way your work will get through those gates without some change-- probably a lot-- and that's only if they accept your work in the first place.

If the editor doesn't change it, someone else along the way probably will in order to make it fit somewhere so that they can market it and sell it. I don't blame them; it is just a fact of life and doing business.


I'm thinking that self-publishing/independent publishing is the way to go. You get control of your own works and you get the majority of the profit, but you have to make sure that you put out a product worthy of being bought, so it's still not easy.

I'm on my phone in the car, but I'd be interested in that discussion too!!! Be back later.

[Stacy]

Jan 17, 2011 14:24:23 GMT -5 @celebkiriedhel said:

I had a friend who published - and the editor did way more than correct spelling/grammar.

There were chapter rewrites, lists of things that did and didn't work, word count changes, as well as the spelling and grammar checks. It was quite a long process, and my friend actually ended up re-writing about 40% of the book.

But to be fair - both he and I (and the editor) thought it was a better book after the edit.

There is a big difference between editing to make something better and editing to make something more "marketable" (yes, that word should be read as if spit with disgust).

If I ever decide to do a whole book at once, as opposed to my current serial style, I'd try to do that sort of editing myself. But then I think I have the right personality for that - I am highly perfectionist, quite willing to do the work of poring over everything and seeing what's wrong with it and fixing it, and very fond of the delete key and of killing my darlings.

But then, of course, I have no intention of ever selling my work. It doesn't have to please anyone but me. The thing is - when it comes to my own work, I am incredibly hard to please. And I drive myself like an insane taskmaster with a whip that I am not afraid to apply, frequently and with all the strength I can muster. And honestly - editing is my favorite part, taking the block of words and sculpting them into something beautiful.

Really - I don't know if I could handle someone else doing that part of the work. It's so personal - I feel the shape the words want to be in, and I delete and rewrite until they fit that shape. It's so...you have to be able to see the shapes and feel the rhythm and hear the music and draw out the lines and the curves, and I do not trust that to anyone else. It is very delicate, very demanding work, and it requires the extremely intimate knowledge of the words that can only come from having created them yourself.

[dinuriel]

Stacy, I believe you may be my long-lost twin.

I'm not too picky when it comes to the stylistic technicalities of other people's works--I just want to read a good story--but my own are a completely different issue. Not so much my Sims stories, because as soon as I have pictures, I tend to use them as a crutch and I'm lazy enough to not bother writing multiple drafts and completely pouring over something I'm posting on the internet for free and for fun, but with my offline projects... they take a long time. Every word is chosen for a reason, and the editors don't have access to the workings of my mind, so they won't necessary see those reasons.

I think this is the disadvantage of writing over other artforms; no editor is going to add extra shades to a painting, or remove notes from a composition, and that's the way it should be. More than anything else, art--writing--comes from the soul, and you don't take the soul and stretch it and compress it like modelling clay and stick it in a mold and put it on the shelves alongside similar mockeries. If an editor really thinks a section isn't working, they should consult the author and let them know that, and let the author rewrite it. Yes, it's less efficient, but if the editor is going to be doing a complete revamp of the book, it should be their name on the cover--I know I for one wouldn't want mine associated with something I didn't actually write. If someone changed my work, without my input or anything, it would just... cease to be mine.

[hrootbeer]

I just wanted to thank everyone for their thoughts and advice on dialogue. My last two blog updates have been extremely dialogue heavy. I have always struggled with the process of writing realistic dialogue and avoiding heavily descriptive tags or over use of the word said. I've been giddy with joy with my last two updates because I feel that I nailed the complex dialogue. I think I owe a lot of that to you guys and what I took from this conversation.

Thanks!

[pinkfiend1]

Writing conversation scares me, not so much because of the dialog tags anymore, because this has made me very aware of them wheras I wasn't before but because I'm always worried about making the conversation seem real, and flowing like it needs to. Otherwise I'm very prone to making hugely babbling conversations like I tend to talk in real life if I do talk to people. Which never seems to be right if I put it onto paper.

[hrootbeer]

Feb 20, 2011 16:49:41 GMT -5 pinkfiend1 said:

Writing conversation scares me, not so much because of the dialog tags anymore, because this has made me very aware of them wheras I wasn't before but because I'm always worried about making the conversation seem real, and flowing like it needs to. Otherwise I'm very prone to making hugely babbling conversations like I tend to talk in real life if I do talk to people. Which never seems to be right if I put it onto paper.

I know exactly what you mean. That was my problem and why I had such trouble with tags. I like my dialogue to read as if the characters were really talking, but I know that written dialogue is often nothing at all like spoken dialogue. That's why this has been so helpful to me. I'm made a conscious effort to practice writing with dialogue instead of just narration. I think this is especially difficult in first person POV.

[Lorsty]

In my opinion, getting Protection from Editors is one of the worst things an author can do.

Editors might be merciless fiends that lurk in our nightmares, feed on our souls, crush our hopes and dreams and, generally speaking, are plain evil. But they exist for a very good reason: to make our readers see that what we wrote is no longer crap.

Now, don't get me wrong. I dislike editors as much as... pretty much everyone. When an editor read my novel, she made me cry and scream and curse at her as if she was some kind of evil demon who had taken the job just for the "evulz". But then I realized that, though it hurt, she was right: my work could be improved.

Now, seeing the posts here makes me think I might be one of those monsters that doesn't care about his novel because I care about what other people say, not to stroke my ego, but to actually make something that, whether it's marketable or not, it's something that people will read and say "Holy crap! It's not crap!"

So, am I selling my soul to the darkest gods of our world if I believe an editor's job is not only good but necessary?

Personally, I think that's overstepping their boundaries; an editor's job should be to correct careless spelling and grammatical errors, not to distort the author's intended words.

You're thinking of a copy editor.

[dinuriel]

Oh, I do think that every piece of work can use some improvement, sure. If an editor thinks that the phrases in a sentence should be rearranged to improve flow or that Noun X would be more fitting than the original Noun Y and specifically goes over this with the author in order to reach an agreement, then fine. But if an editor was to change something without consulting the author? Honestly, if I wrote a book that got published, then picked up that book with my name on the cover and lo and behold, there's something I didn't write... I think I'd feel like a fraud. I think I'd be torn between wanting to throw up all over the place and wanting to claw my own eyes out. Maybe it's stupid, but that's just how I feel about it.

And even little things like the dialogue tags. Me and the "said" tag have a dark history. It sends me back to a very bad place in my life due to some seriously fucked-up associations. I can get over it in other people's stuff if I like the work as a whole, but there's no chance in hell that it's getting into mine. For the most part, I don't really use tags any more, but on the off-chance I do, I agonize over finding a non-"said" verb that fits without interrupting the flow, and if some editor just dismissed all that sweat and all those tears by scratching out the word and writing "said" in bold red letters? That would be beyond insulting to me. I know that my issue with "said" is weird and stupid and irrational, but it's still a big deal to me and I don't think I could trust something I spent so much time and energy on with someone who wasn't sensitive to that.

So, in short? If an editor is willing to actually work with the author, fine. I just don't want to think of anyone going over my head and changing my work without even having the decency to keep me in the know.