Going Independent

[thelunarfox]

So I've been doing a lot of research over the past few months because traditional publishing scares the crap out of me to be honest and doesn't seem worth it to me.

I know there are a couple of us on this board who are pursuing careers in writing, and so I wondered what you think about self publishing (that's really an old term for it though, now it's starting to be called independent publishing) vs. traditional publishing.

Impressions? First thoughts?

[infinitygoddess]

As someone who is a self-publisher, I would recommend, that if you are to pursue a self-publishing route, make sure that you have the money to buy ISBN numbers and a marketing kit. I use CreateSpace and that's been my biggest mistake not to do those things, because my books are limited to selling on Amazon and CreateSpace and not anywhere else.

As a result, my books haven't sold as well as I would like. (It'd be nice as it would sure solve some of my money issues right now!)

[thelunarfox]

Check out Smashwords ISBN manager. They offer ISBNs to members of their "Smashwords Premium Catalog" which from what they say is based on mechanical requirements. They mention a free and a premium ISBN, the premium is $9.95, but they charge your account and take it from your royalties so it looks like either way you wouldn't have to pay upfront. (Of course this means you'd have to put your work up on Smashwords, but hopefully that might help you, and Smashwords can cross post to other sites.)

So you've self published though? Awesome! Are you publishing your graphic novels? How has that been going for you for the most part?

[laura]

I haven't completely given up on the idea of traditional publishing yet - at least for my novels.

My planned novel series though I'm thinking I could only possibly do independently. And I'd want to have free reign over that anyway. It's kind of a wacky format, and I think I'd have to try too hard to convince any traditional publisher to get on board, where as my novel is just a novel.

I did want to share this link though - haven't researched them, but I found these girls through Twitter. Duolit. (note: again, I have NOT done any research on them, so pursue at your own risk.) They have services available to help self-published authors with all those things you miss out on by going independent. I imagine there must be other companies like this out there, offering similar products and services. But I like that these girls do a la carte pricing, and package deals.

And if you look here, their packages are pretty pricey for out-of-pocket, but it gives you an idea of all the things you need to do yourself by not going with a traditional publisher.

I'd also add as a general note, that you'd also want to find your own really good editor/beta readers to help you slog through three or four drafts. They do offer proof-reading in some of their packages, but book editing requires a lot more than just looking for spelling and grammar mistakes.

I'll come back to add more to this in a bit.

[infinitygoddess]

Jan 17, 2011 18:06:12 GMT -5 @thelunarfox said:

Check out Smashwords ISBN manager. They offer ISBNs to members of their "Smashwords Premium Catalog" which from what they say is based on mechanical requirements. They mention a free and a premium ISBN, the premium is $9.95, but they charge your account and take it from your royalties so it looks like either way you wouldn't have to pay upfront. (Of course this means you'd have to put your work up on Smashwords, but hopefully that might help you, and Smashwords can cross post to other sites.)

So you've self published though? Awesome! Are you publishing your graphic novels? How has that been going for you for the most part?

I'll have to check Smashwords out. Thanks!

Yeah, I have published my graphic novel series The Reptilia, though only through volume 3 thus far. The books are listed on the Support page, but I'm thinking it might not be a bad idea to move those links to the front.

Volumes 4 and 5 aren't going into TBK until after they've been aired on the web. So it'll be a while.

[laura]

Oh, and on the ISBN thing, I've been wondering - when I release my series, I probably won't want an ISBN on every single chapter, right? Just the finished book at the end of the "season"? I'm really still very confused on the logistics of my own idea, lol!

[dinuriel]

I love the idea of independent publishing, especially if traditional publishing really is as distorting and violating as it sounds. However... is it possible to make that one's primary source of income? Not to sound like someone who's just looking for money, but personally... well, to be honest (and given the so-so quality of my writing, this probably sounds overly-inflated), I would love it if I didn't have to have another job to supplement my income. But then again, that might just be because I have a very narrow range of interests and an even narrower range of talents and the two don't exactly overlap and I have such a horrible personality that I would probably be downright miserable in most full-time jobs.

Is there some sort of middle ground, perhaps? Smaller, less invasive publishing houses, maybe?

[thelunarfox]

Jan 17, 2011 18:17:04 GMT -5 @laura said:

And if you look here, their packages are pretty pricey for out-of-pocket, but it gives you an idea of all the things you need to do yourself by not going with a traditional publisher.

You mean most of the things. They list some things on there that really sort of come automatically like distribution. By posting it, you're distributing it. And press release? Those aren't always necessary.

A publishing plan, you should really have one of those already. Layout/format can be done by you if you're savy enough, or there are people who can be hired. Same for the cover art. (and I think layout and cover art together will be cheaper than that package.)

It all sounds scary, but it's really not when taken in stride.



I'm more interested in what people think about it though. Are they aware that there's a independent community of authors publishing books on their own? If you found out someone went the route of publishing their book themselves rather than going with a bid publishing company, would you think, "Ew, they obviously don't have what it takes," or would you give it a try? Because the only downside I see is there still being a stigma associated with untraditional publishing.




Laura, no, you don't need ISBNs to publish your ebooks on Smashwords and Amazon. Some of the other large retailers do require ISBNs apparently like Barnes and Nobel and Sony.

[thelunarfox]

Jan 17, 2011 18:43:23 GMT -5 dinuriel said:

I love the idea of independent publishing, especially if traditional publishing really is as distorting and violating as it sounds. However... is it possible to make that one's primary source of income? Not to sound like someone who's just looking for money, but personally... well, to be honest (and given the so-so quality of my writing, this probably sounds overly-inflated), I would love it if I didn't have to have another job to supplement my income. But then again, that might just be because I have a very narrow range of interests and an even narrower range of talents and the two don't exactly overlap and I have such a horrible personality that I would probably be downright miserable in most full-time jobs.

Is there some sort of middle ground, perhaps? Smaller, less invasive publishing houses, maybe?

Oh yes. Quite a few people have surprised themselves making money from this and actually I think this would be a wonderful option for you because you write so much and you do so well.

Look here. This guy was in the traditional publishing, but he switched over to just independent and he makes much more money. He publishes interviews from other independents whether they have experience publishing previously or not.

[Sarahjane]

Oh, and on the ISBN thing, I've been wondering - when I release my series, I probably won't want an ISBN on every single chapter, right? Just the finished book at the end of the "season"?

I used to work in a bookstore, so I feel marginally qualified to comment on this. The ISBN is the unique identifier of your book, so I think that every "sellable unit" should have its own ISBN. If you assign several volumes the same ISBN, it will be very difficult for people to find the volume that they want. But if the chapters are bound into a single volume, that volume only needs a single ISBN.

[laura]

Van, small publishing houses are a wonderful option, and one I've considered as well. You get more personal attention, and probably more freedom over the process as well. I'm hoping more freedom over deadlines and timing as well. I'm terrified of some of the authors I've heard of publishing with these big houses, who want their revisions due in like three or four months. Man, I just don't work that fast! lol! (And don't ever want to be forced to work that fast.)

Lunar, right, what I meant is that's basically a checklist of things you either need to do on your own, or hire someone to do for you.

Unfortunately, yes, there is still the stigma. But I think if you can get enough positive reviews and people to speak on your behalf that yes, your work is good, then maybe it's possible to move beyond that. That's the thing about indie-publishing - it opens up the gates for both really good writing, and really bad. And there's really no procedures in place at the moment to distinguish the two.

I'm hoping there will be soon though. As more people take to digital and indie publishing, some kind of measure will have to evolve.

Sarah, oh thank you! I didn't know you could assign the same ISBN to different works. So would I assign all the chapters of "book 1" (whatever I decide to title it) the same number then? And what about the whole complete "book 1", would that have a different number as the individual chapters?

[thelunarfox]

Jan 17, 2011 18:58:12 GMT -5 @laura said:

Unfortunately, yes, there is still the stigma. But I think if you can get enough positive reviews and people to speak on your behalf that yes, your work is good, then maybe it's possible to move beyond that. That's the thing about indie-publishing - it opens up the gates for both really good writing, and really bad. And there's really no procedures in place at the moment to distinguish the two.

Yes, the gates are open, so I can understand that being an issue. (It's like the difference between quality control at TSR vs. Mod the Sims.) But the readers vet the writing, so that's one way to know what's possibly good or bad.

I guess the question is where's the stigma coming from? Because it seems the stigma is mostly with the traditional publishing houses and if I've already written them off... lol.


Edit: If you're just doing an eformat for the separate chapters, you really don't need an ISBN. You can just get the ISBN when you do the whole book for the season.

[Sarahjane]

An ISBN is primarily a commercial thing. I'm getting a little confused about what you want to do with your project, so let me use The Lord of the Rings as an example. Initially Tolkein wanted all six sections published in a single volume. But publishers decided that this was too long, so they printed three books, each of which contained two sections, and the three books got their own ISBN. Since then there have been lots of editions of LotR, and every time it gets printed that version gets a new ISBN. So if a company wants to publish the entire trilogy in one giant volume, that giant volume gets one ISBN. If another company decides to publish in three volumes, they use three ISBN. If they then decide to make a paperback version of those three volumes, they use three more ISBN.

I hope this helps.

[laura]

Lunar and Sarah, ah yes, that makes sense about the ISBN then! I was planning on releasing the chapters every week without an ISBN, then assigning one for the whole book at the end of the "season". It wouldn't make sense to assign a different ISBN to each chapter.

Lunar, the stigma comes from the publishing community, I would imagine. Because they don't want to be made redundant. As far as I know, most pure readers (meaning, having no interest in publishing themselves) are not interested in where a book comes from - only that it's a good story.

As time goes on, there will have to be other measures to go by - there already are bestsellers' lists and reviews. Thing is though that it's sometimes hard for independent authors to compete with big houses and all the marketing money they have to put behind their authors. At the same time though, the publishers only put that much money behind their top picks, and a lot of their authors go without any marketing attention at all.

That's where a lot of mid-list authors are starting to get wise though - they're *not* getting much from their publishers anyway, and they can make a lot more money on their own with digital and indie publishing, and since they're doing their own marketing anyway, they gain in the end.

From what I've learned so far, one major fallback for small press and indie authors is getting their paper books in physical bookstores. The playing field is becoming leveled for digital publishing, but the fact is that it's only (and I'm grabbing this figure off the top of my head) like 25% of readers who will buy a book in digital. Most readers are still reading in paper. So paper distribution for indie authors is really hard to do still.

(more later - have to get my kid in bed...)

[Stacy]

I am aware of it. And I'd be the last person to think of it as "less than" traditional publishing. And the first person to rage at people who think of it that way.

But it's not an avenue I want to pursue right now.

Which I change a lot on this - I've thought about traditional publishing and I've had dreams of big houses and also looked at the smaller houses and then I thought I wanted to conquer the webfic world. So please understand that my current position is not written in stone and I may change in the future.

But it's just - a few months back I was reading Nathan Bransford's blog and hanging out on his forum, and I just....couldn't take it anymore. Stopped following all that "advice to writers" stuff on Twitter. Stopped going to industry blogs. The old dreams just...died.

And even if independent publishing isn't as restrictive, I still get that feeling about it. That feeling of chains. I don't want gates, open or closed. I hate the idea of gates. Actually - my hatred of gates burns so hot that Seth would be impressed.

I think this may be the Stacy theme song, lol.

Born to be Wild - Steppenwolf

And of course, when I shared the ending of this song with my husband, he immediately deigned it the Stacy theme song.

Killing in the Name - Rage Against the Machine

I don't know - I think the "it" I can't take anymore is mainstream American culture. And yes, you don't have to deal with that quite as much in self-publishing. But you do still have to deal with it, to an extent that I am not comfortable with right now. It's like - your content might not be as restricted by it, but getting people to take that content seriously is.

It feels like - the more seriously I take writing, the deeper I go into it, the more I discover this great and deep love for it in my soul - the less and less I care about external recognition for it. The dreams of book tours and signings and interviews fade into the distance. The fantasies of winning awards dry up and turn into dust. Other people disappear, and it's just me and the Platonic ideal and the struggle to make that ideal real.

Please do note - this has been my own personal journey and should not be taken as a statement on anyone else's. And like I said, I may change next month and go back to wanting to be a literary rock star. Who knows? But this is where I am now and what I think and what I feel, and you asked for that. So yeah.

Now I'll shut up and get out of the way of all the shop talk.

[mdpthatsme]

My Grandfather (13pumpkin's Dad) has been trying to publish since...she was my age and he's been trying through the traditional sense with the agents and publishing houses. I would assume by now that he'd drop that idea and try to self publish. I think he feels a little icky about it.

Me, myself, and I...? I don't know. I haven't really researched either way enough to completely decide. What I gather from my grandfather's experience is that unless you've got friends somewhere higher up then...most likely the traditiona; sense isn't the right way to go.

[shrug]

[celebkiriedhel]

This is just a brain-dump, based on the first post, not having read any of the replies, so I apologise if I'm repeating anything being said.

Personally, for me - if I thought it was reasonable for any of my stuff to be published, I'd self-publish because of all the control I'd have.

That being said - it's WAY more work to self-publish and not inexpensive.

There are pluses and minuses to all the different ways you can do things.

Some of the things to think about though:

1. Small vs. Large - Make sure that the publishing rights are not exclusive to the publisher with the small one. The reason being - it gives you more room to move to make deals with foreign markets, and if your book gets made into a movie. I've heard of cases where an author sold global rights to a small publisher in the UK and lost out on a movie deal in the US because of personality problems between the author and the publisher that developed later.

2. Make sure you have a lawyer go over any contracts. Don't take their word for it, or your own understanding of what the contract says.

3. The major benefits of having a publisher as I can see it is - they spruik your book, and they pay the publishing costs for a major cut of the sales. That can be far more massive than you would think. A good publisher can get you interviews on radio and tv, ads in magazines, book signings, and readings. Depending on how excited they are about your book (i.e. how much money they think they can make from you).

You can also get readership if you have a book from a good publisher for a niche market. e.g. mills and boon for romance novels - you can make a handsome living from writing M&B novels that people buy because of the brand. Dedicated M&B readers also know the author as a sub-set of that.

Alternatively - if you publish your crime novel within a publisher who mostly does romance - you're going to lose readers. So it's worthwhile knowing who the publishers are in your genre. (Assuming you actually have one).

If you self-publish, you're going to be starting from scratch. That doesn't matter much to the readers that find you from your website, or via friends etc. (i.e. viral marketing). On the other hand - it WILL make a difference when you are marketing your book to media or bookstores.

A lot of bookstores will sell self-published books but will put them in an out of the way place, because frankly they generally don't look as a professionally presented as books from traditional publishing. Independent bookstores are dying out because of mass-franchised bookstores like Borders or Angus&Robertson. So it's important to have a marketing perspective for both the big boys, as well as the independants. Also think of niche bookstores.

For example - I'd probably try to get my books into Science Fiction bookstores, because that's what I tend to write.

4. The major thing about a paper book, is that it is presented professionally, and looks like the real thing.

e.g. Matthew Reilly.

And this is why I cringe when thinking about publishing - I've never been into presentation over substance.

But how many books do you pick up when you don't know the author by the cover, or the title?

Here endeth my ramble.

[thelunarfox]

Stacy, I can completely understand. Feel free to change your mind later on if you want, I won't hold you to your opinions because they can change based on how we're feeling. Personally, I never looked at a writing blog until a couple of months ago, and even then I still mostly skim stuff unless I want to hear it, so I avoid rules of writing for the most part and anything else that makes me uncomfortable.

Hell, maybe I'll change my own mind again and decide to hoard my stories again.



Laura, it's true about getting print book in stores. That's difficult. But I just noticed this link on that blog I linked to up above. It's a site that links independent book stores, and it's also a way to link to other independent authors in the local area. I would imagine that still means you have to do the leg work. Take your physical book in and try to sell a few copies to the book shop, but it can be done.

Still, that is a problem. But even if it's only ebook format, ebooks are still selling really well right now even if not everyone has an ebook reader. It seems that ereaders were a popular thing to give at Christmas judging from the way stores pushed them out and from the chatter on Twitter and various blogs. And people are still making money selling primarily ebooks and most of those are priced at a decent and reasonable price when compared to the high price of traditionally published ebooks. (They still expect to get cover price for the digital version, whereas most independent books sell for $3 to $5.)




Kiri, thank you for the brain dump. Yes, that's what I've been doing, dumping stuff out of my brain and then really thinking about it.

Self publishing isn't an easy way, but it is easier than before. It's not as expensive as it used to be. If you want a printed book version, there are print on demand sites. From what I understand of before, you had to buy in bulk which meant spending money on printed books that you might not be able to sell and then you'd have to find a buyer yourself for those printed books.

But now, you only have to upload your formatted files to the sites directly. That costs you nothing. Print on demand sites take their money when the book is printed and give you the profit. And now we have ebooks, and all the major retailers do sell them online.

So then the only concern is getting readers. That's the biggest concern I'd have. But that's where you put proper social networking to good use. Facebook, twitter, forums. There are communities for independents. Sites like Amazon and Smashwords want you to succeed because then they get paid, and they don't have to lift a finger or provide a product.


As for how many books I pick up when I don't know the author-- with the ereader, a lot. I was thinking about this the other day. Like I said to Laura, ebooks are still going for cover price from the major publishers and some of those publishers do not allow major retailers to put those on sale. Big mistake! I'm not going to spend $9.99 on some book and not get the physical version. And if I really want to read it but get it cheaply, I'm going to either use the library or go to the used book store. Does the author get paid that way? Nope!

But when I go to Smashwords, I find good cheap novels of all sorts of varieties. Some authors put up free stories or collections for download so that you can get used to their style and see if you like them. Then they offer books for $3, and well I'm pretty much sold. All of that money goes to the author. So independents sort of win by not having their books mass produced and only being available online.

[thelunarfox]

Drew, that's part of my problem is the contract. Why would I go for a contract where I will sell less, probably still have to work my ass off, and then get less royalties? Because even if you are with a traditional publishing house, you still have to work your ass off to promote it. You still start with no readers.

From the major retailers like Amazon, you do get about 70%, but the hard part really is getting readers. It has been done though. Take this guy for example (the guy being interviewed a little further in). He never published before at all.

As far as I can see, the cost of self publishing will be in the cover and the formatting. Those are still optional. If you're good at art, some people have created their own and they look good. Or if you're good at coding, you can format. There's also the editor, so you can pay someone to do it, or you can find trusted people to help you edit it and make it shine.

[celebkiriedhel]

Lunar - great blog! That sounds cool.

You make a great case for epublishing - and given that readers like Kindle and so-on are being used more and more, I reckon that sounds like a good way to go too.

Also - I hadn't heard on the PoD thing. The last time I researched self-publishing it was like 13K AUD, to print 500 books. (This was about 6-10 years ago now). Definitely not a profit-making situation. (That's proper novels, with photo colour covers).

I'm thinking that there's a lesson there for me - publishing changes.

Personally - I think I'd want to still have some hard-copies (I'm a paper book sort of person) but they could be a small sub-set of the print-off.


OOO now you're giving me thoughts....