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Post by sjoisan on Mar 8, 2011 17:54:50 GMT -5
I've read some popular fiction written by female authors who don't have an objective voice (in my opinion) when writing their male leads. The men are too forward thinking, mostly metro-males or too enlightened to be believable. While there are men like that, they're not so many that you can find them in every neighborhood. Can you write him and make him not only I watched a made-for-television movie, Spartacus (not the tv show) - in it, Spartacus was strong, intellectual, approved of equal rights for women, allowed his 'wife' to sit in on war meetings etc. All along I was thinking "Come on! Get real." Here you have this essentially barbaric guy, living in the days when women were little more than chattel, they were slaves for goodness sake and yet, the writers threw this ultra-enlightened dude into the duds of a gladiator and expected us to swallow him whole! It made me sick and I couldn't help thinking, what a waste of good material. Hmmm, I shall cease and desist before I write an essay. Thanks dinuriel for putting this up. It's nudge me into keeping my focus. A quick check of Wikipedia suggest that that portrayal would be accurate. Main article: Women in Ancient Sparta Political, social, and economic equality "Spartan women enjoyed a status, power, and respect that was unknown in the rest of the classical world. They controlled their own properties, as well as the properties of male relatives who were away with the army. It is estimated that women were the sole owners of at least 35% of all land and property in Sparta.[70] The laws regarding a divorce were the same for both men and women. Unlike women in Athens, if a Spartan woman became the heiress of her father because she had no living brothers to inherit (an epikleros), the woman was not required to divorce her current spouse in order to marry her nearest paternal relative.[71] Spartan women rarely married before the age of 20, and unlike Athenian women who wore heavy, concealing clothes and were rarely seen outside the house, Spartan women wore short dresses and went where they pleased. Girls as well as boys exercised nude, and young women as well as young men may have participated in the Gymnopaedia ("Festival of Nude Youths").[72][73] Historic women: Many women played a significant role in the history of Sparta.[74] Queen Gorgo, heiress to the throne and the wife of Leonidas I, was an influential and well-documented figure. Herodotus records that as a small girl she advised her father Cleomenes to resist a bribe. She was later said to be responsible for decoding a warning that the Persian forces were about to invade Greece; after Spartan generals could not decode a wooden tablet covered in wax, she ordered them to clear the wax, revealing the warning.[75] Plutarch's Moralia contains a collection of "Sayings of Spartan Women", including a laconic quip attributed to Gorgo: when asked by a woman from Attica why Spartan women were the only women in the world who could rule men, she replied "Because we are the only women who are mothers of men".[76]"
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Post by sb on Mar 8, 2011 19:52:24 GMT -5
sjoisan, I want to hug you and laugh out loud and cheer you all at the same time.
Yes BUT. It was an exception. The reason people remember women like that is because it was so rare and it did not last.
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Post by Lorsty on Mar 9, 2011 20:12:05 GMT -5
I don't like writing female characters because, in my opinion, they don't possess a certain challenge as male characters do. I mean, female characters don't have to "work" to be seem as sympathetic.
I prefer to write male character not just for the hawtness involved but also because then I have to write harder on the character to make people like him or feel sympathy for him.
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Post by laura on Mar 9, 2011 22:05:05 GMT -5
I mean, female characters don't have to "work" to be seem as sympathetic. Have you read my female characters, who 95% of my readers want to smack upside the head and shake the life out of? lol! Female characters *definitely* have to work for their sympathy as well. In fact, I often feel it's the male characters in my own story who get away with murder and still get sympathy. So who knows?
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dinuriel
Full Member
Torturing characters? Me? Nooo...
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Post by dinuriel on Mar 9, 2011 23:33:11 GMT -5
Honestly? I've found that a lot of female characters in published literature whom I suspect were meant to be sympathetic just annoyed the hell out of me.
I like writing female characters who swear and belch and make dirty jokes with the men. I also like writing total cutthroat bitches. I don't like writing meek little church girls who never speak out of turn or whose eyes bulge at the sound of the word "damn" mainly because I don't like reading about them. I know that sometimes, that role is essential and that not every female character in a given story can be awesome, but are those girls ever my favorite characters? No. Usually, I don't even find them sympathetic just because it's hard to feel sympathy for someone who seems more like a part of the wall than anything else. With my own shyer, meeker female characters, I try to at least give them flaws and problems in an attempt to make them interesting, but I'm never sure if it works.
That goes with guys too. I just don't find naivety and passiveness appealing in a character, regardless of gender. If the character can grow out of that, then they earn my respect and even my fondness. If not? Meh.
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lepifera
Junior Member
"....."
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Post by lepifera on Mar 10, 2011 2:46:07 GMT -5
I've always preferred writing male characters to female. One person told me once that I didn't write very strong female characters - that they were always overly dependent on the males. I haven't really noticed that myself, but I have found that in my current project, I don't care as much for the female characters as I do the males (the lone exception being Marnie). The males are just more compelling and interesting for me to delve into as a writer. Well, Bex, I hope you don't take offense. You just mentioned the very reason why I find it so very hard to feel sympathy towards the character of Terri in ID. Sometimes I wonder if you actually set her up that way so to lead towards a final showdown between a much more "grown" version of her and Luke.
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Post by bex on Mar 10, 2011 4:15:35 GMT -5
Lepifera - Oh my, no I don't take offense to that! I was just telling my mom today that I generally like all my characters, except for Terri. LOL!
I've recently found that writing dialogue for male characters comes more naturally to me as well. I can create a conversation between two males very easily, but two females and I stumble. I wonder what this says about me?
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Post by sjoisan on Mar 10, 2011 16:27:26 GMT -5
I've recently found that writing dialogue for male characters comes more naturally to me as well. I can create a conversation between two males very easily, but two females and I stumble. I wonder what this says about me? That you should do it more and call for an assist when you stumble. That's what I always do when I have my doubts about whether or not a man would do such and such. sb- I'd like to respond to your statemtent studying the roles of women in history has been one of my hobbies and I'm always wanting to talk about that, but I'm not sure what you're getting at.
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Post by celebkiriedhel on Mar 10, 2011 22:27:26 GMT -5
Coolness!!! Another one who loves women in history!
I'm a big fan of Christine di Pizan - a feminist back in the 13th C or so.
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Post by sb on Mar 10, 2011 22:42:22 GMT -5
sjoisan, I really wasn't getting at anything. I love history and I love what you shared. I'm going through a difficult time right now so please ignore the occasional screech...it doesn't mean a damn thing except that I had a really bad day. Sorry...
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Post by sjoisan on Mar 12, 2011 13:48:22 GMT -5
sjoisan, I really wasn't getting at anything. I love history and I love what you shared. I'm going through a difficult time right now so please ignore the occasional screech...it doesn't mean a damn thing except that I had a really bad day. Sorry... No need to apologize. When you read something on the internet you can think of it so many ways I just wanted to make sure I understood where you were coming from. The thing we have to remember about women and history is that the people who recorded it wrote down what was important to them and perhaps perpuated what they wanted to believe about the world. The same with the people who then write our text books, we then get a perception of what things were like in any given period that is limited and incomplete. To give an example of what I mean. In American history a lot of slave owners had sex with female slaves and then sold the resultant offspring for profit. In New Orleans though people found that practice, which was common elsewhere, repugnant. New Orleans slave onwers in a lot of situations would free their mistresses and the offspring and send them to France to educate them. This is generally not covered in your average American text book. But what it gives is a more complete picture of this part of America history. So we shouldn't just accept the idea that women in ancient western society were chattel because thats what people taught us in school, but be prepared to find out something different. If we read or see something in a story that doesn't jive with our version of history rather than assuming a bias on the part of the author we should perhaps assume a bias on the person taught us and go do some research.
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lepifera
Junior Member
"....."
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Post by lepifera on Mar 12, 2011 19:33:26 GMT -5
There is some truth to stereotypes, but we also have to be careful not to be limited by them. That's why I don't really break my characters apart by gender. After going through Velvet's suggested link, now while I am typing, I am curious as to which speech pattern I fall under. It is also interesting to think that when stereotypes are actually social/cultural expectations, women or men would adapt to a pattern of speech/behavior that isn't natural to them. Then one would get at least two layers to a character. It would be fun to peel back such layers as a story progress. There are cultural differences in speech patterns too. In the western culture, I was trained to speak and write in a direct, active voice. Now back in the east, such way of speaking could be considered rude, especially towards one's elders and superiors.
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Post by Lorsty on Mar 14, 2011 14:01:17 GMT -5
I mean, female characters don't have to "work" to be seem as sympathetic. Have you read my female characters, who 95% of my readers want to smack upside the head and shake the life out of? lol! Female characters *definitely* have to work for their sympathy as well. In fact, I often feel it's the male characters in my own story who get away with murder and still get sympathy. So who knows? Well, we have to keep in mind that the whole "sympathy" thing has nothing to do with how we write the characters. It's all on the readers, right? =P Oh, and I should pay more attention to your female characters then.
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choco
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Post by choco on Mar 18, 2011 0:00:51 GMT -5
I've been thinking a lot about this subject before I had decided to be brave enough to hit publish. I think it's best to write the character as best as possible. There are male writers who do a very good job at writing female characters. When I was younger, I always wondered how they did it. Experience around the opposite sex probably helped.
I take the experiences I've had with interacting with the guys I've known. I've known guys who are the usual suspects: wants to put it in everything, doesn't quite want to grow up, selfish, a bit misogynistic, etc. I've known guys who are the sweetest things that it seems a bit impossible that they're like that. At the same time, I've also been around females who are sweet, catty, strong, weak, independent, etc. So I use what I know without trying to makeup a perfect guy, like some of you have said. I try to get the feel of the character before I try to write them out. My biggest issue is that I'm worried about writing most male characters in less-than-flattering light and not an ideal guy.
I appreciate male or female characters who don't fit into a box because it makes me want to analyze them more. It doesn't necessarily mean that I'll like them but if they're not in their "assigned" space, it makes for a more interesting read. I don't make a character specifically for someone to like or dislike. I leave that up to the reader to feel. I know who I like and don't like and it's great when a reader gives me their perspective on the character, male or female, that even I haven't seen before.
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Post by mmmcheezy225 on Jul 7, 2011 14:22:16 GMT -5
I honestly haven't thought about it. My most important goal in writing is that they aren't "Mary Sue"-like, but I guess the mere existence of the term "Mary Sue" would make one think that female characters are indeed more scrutinized than male characters. Now I'm wondering what people would think of the way I write my characters. Are the females in my story too boy-crazy? Are they strong enough? Are they too strong? Am I not giving them enough flaws? *gasp*...Am I giving them too many? :O
Are my males being emasculated? Are they too manly? Are they too "perfect", or too imperfect? Well, darn. I think that when I worry about things too much, it takes all the fun out of writing. I just try to focus on making the characters...themselves. I don't try to make them any more or less of who I feel they are to fit someone's "gender criteria".
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