Subjectivity and social ideas and personal taste

[Stacy]

Wanted to talk about this in its own thread and, well - not make this one so much about my personal issues.

Found this blog post by Roger Ebert today.

The Myth of a Perfect Film

I do think there is some objectivity to art. I will always believe that my Sims 2 stuff could not be honestly and objectively rated one star because the walls were up and the spelling was correct. So I guess I think that there is an objective baseline of competency.

And it's undeniable that there are some works that a great deal of people do agree on. On the other hand, my husband and I have noted that the popularity of a work of art often does not have anything to do with our opinion of its quality. Sure, a ton of people say that The Godfather is a great film. But a ton of people also seem to think that Dan Brown can write. I wouldn't give him one star, because he can plot. But his sentences come pretty darn close to not meeting my bar of baseline competency.

I think that part of why I have trouble understanding it is because I tend to not be a bandwagon type person. And I think that does affect other people's opinions of things. Like my in-laws have a tendency to dislike things because they're popular. My husband and I love Napoleon Dynamite and like to quote it. Apparently Grace's schoolmates like to quote it too and she gets really irritated when we quote it because to her it's overrated and too popular. She comes to it with preconceived concepts based on social experiences.

And their opinion of things does affect mine, really. I used to love Terry Pratchett. But then they found Discworld and now I can't even bring myself to reread my favorites. Their way of being fans, which is making inside jokes and talking about the characters in ways I can't identify with and getting mad at me for not getting references to little details that I didn't care about in books I read years ago, has completely destroyed my enjoyment of the books.

But still - they're still great art. I still love them. It hasn't changed my opinion of Pratchett's work. It's just a lot harder now to get into it when I know I'm going to have to deal with my in-laws talking about it in ways that I can't comprehend or share and that really really irritate me. God - sometimes on the way home from a movie that I enjoyed Grace is in the back dissecting it in ways that are alien to the way I experienced it and I just want to jump out of the car.

I read something else recently about my preferred genre of books - classics. I did not go to a four year college. Well - I did, but for just one semester in which I sort of went crazy and didn't go to most of my classes.

So the article was talking about how people hate classics because of the way they're presented to them in school - here you go, found it.

Uncovering the Angst: Literature vs Genre

I came to the classics section of the bookstore as an innocent kid looking for something with more substance than Sweet Valley Twins and the Babysitter's Club, unaware that they were supposed to be good for me and that they had all these socially loaded concepts behind them. I've never understood socially loaded concepts, lol.

Dude - did anyone else read those? I remember one weekend in elementary school I laid out all my Sweet Valley books and read like...something like 20 or more of them in one day.

When I was in second grade my brother was a senior and I did his English homework for him - reading Agatha Christie's And Then There Were None and telling him the answers to some questions. He got a 92. And I went and found more Agatha Christie to read.

God, me and tangents. Anyway - the point is that obviously I am subjective. Very subjective. To the point that sometimes I think my experience of reality is quite different to the general experience, and I'm not just talking about my distorted thinking about perfectionism and being scared of people hating me.

I dealt with this back in Sims 2 days too - oh, I got so upset when legacies that were just pictures of simselves with captions like "Oh ho, so and so's simself is drinking at the juice bar again" started to overtake my legacy in ratings. Because I knew that was based on social stuff and on the authors of those legacies being perceived as "popular" and on people taking their opinions from others and wanting to be included in some in-group. I couldn't wrap my mind around random pictures of simselves and occasional shots of sims by the trashcan with a caption about how they got a promotion being considered better art than a story with plot and carefully taken pictures. Because I could never understand the social aspect.

Kind of like how I can't connect to the comments about character relationships on other stories and how that keeps me from commenting on stories I read on occasion.

I saw this with The Dark Knight too - on a political board I visited at the time there were a few people rejecting it just because it was popular, just because it was a movie based on a comic book and they had all these socially loaded ideas and prejudices about comic books and art and popularity and the unwashed idiotic masses.

And I think - I think I can understand real subjectivity. Like in the Ebert post, with the good negative Inception review. I may not be able to completely relate to it, because of the hype thing. I didn't know anything about the hype and only went to see it because John and Grace wanted to. The hype seems to go into social areas that I can't follow. But still - overall the review seems to be solid and looks at the movie on its own merits.

I think that if someone pointed out the faults that they see in my stuff in a professional intellectual way, I could deal. It's when it's personal and based in social stuff that I just can't understand.

I guess, in my subjective opinion, one should go into a work of art with innocence. Maybe humans can never be objective, but I think it's possible to strive for it. To at least look at something with your own eyes and ears and heart and not cloud it with what you think personally of the creator or with what your friends think about it or how popular or unpopular it is or ideas about social status.

Ah, but did I not just say earlier than that I can't look at Pratchett now without it being clouded by my in-laws?

Well - like I said, I think that innocence of perception is something to strive for.

Guess I'll shut up now - already made you all my tl;dr bitches, eh?

[sb]

First, the link to Ebert's Myth of a Perfect Film is one of the best things I have ever read! Thank you!! And it perfectly describes how hard it is to navigate between 'perfect' and 'not so perfect' all the while trying to find the dock because those are some wicked reviewer storms.

I don't understand the parts about popularity. And the Babysitters Club because no, I just read horse books. Walter Farley and anything about horses.

Dan Brown made millions because he's smart and found a formula that worked. So did, let's see, Michael Crichton and JK Rowling. And a lot of other people who figured out how to make a living writing stuff that's commercial. Why is it commercial? Because people buy it. Why do they buy it? Because they like it. Why do they like it? Because it's quick and fast and they can cheer and walk out of the book and toss it in the trash and have fun. People want that. Life sucks and people want entertainment.

Is it good writing? Applying even a minimal standard, probably not. But I am no judge of good writing. I'm not a professional writer, have no credentials, so how can I say what's good and what's ridiculous crap?

I do think there is a standard. It's both ephemeral and pounded in cement. You've already raised the standard for internet writing. Your writing is incredible. Ripping take no prisoners writing, take it or leave it good, astonishingly and remarkably and memorably good. It's hard to believe that anyone would walk away from your work and not remember it and think about it and measure everything else against it. It's not a virtual book you can toss away on your way out and forget because it was nothing but just entertainment.

And if you don't feel like commenting, for whatever reason, then don't. Character development and so on, if it's not your thing, then it's not. Most people who read writing online don't comment anyway.

[Stacy]

I've been cruising movie critic blogs about Inception and The Dark Knight and Christopher Nolan.

And yep - I do get the idiotic unwashed masses feel from some of the Nolan haters.

And from others - I think it's just a totally different way of looking at the world and at art. Their genes and chemicals and life experiences are very different from my genes and chemicals and life experiences. And so I suppose they probably wouldn't like the art that comes from my genes and chemicals and life experiences, and that's okay.

I reserve the right to call haters on elitist bullshit, though. There's a big difference between "I perceived this movie/book/Sims story/painting in a different way than you did" and "I do not like this movie/book/Sims story painting because it's popular and I am above the masses." Of course it goes both ways - I haven't watched TV in a decade. It's a totally personal choice. I've been called rather nasty names on one message board because I don't watch it.

It's possible to like something that's popular without being a stupid sheep, and it's possible to dislike something that's popular without being an elitist asshole.

I think, in the end, the point of these two posts is that I wish more people could just be open and not be prejudiced or make assumptions about things. But it goes back to subjectivity and differences in our natures - forming their opinions by reacting to the opinions of others is just how they work and how they make sense of their experiences.

It also goes back to genre and special knowledge, I think, which I want to do another thread about that. I've had two incidences lately, one in which I had no experience in the genre and one in which I did, that showed me how knowledge or the lack thereof of the culture and tropes and traditions behind a work of art can affect your opinion of it.

And your mood can too - I know that I've seen a movie or read a story and thought it was awesome at the time and then later, sometimes just the next day, I'm like "What? What did I see in this before?"

I guess, at the end of the day, all you can do is strive to perfect your own vision and your own idea and then send it out into the world and hope that at least a few other people see what you saw in it.

[Stacy]

On Liking and Disliking

Quote from one of the comments.

The problem is, it's not always easy to determine the independent reality. There may not even be one. Maybe the best thing to do is give up even describing films and shots in terms of "good" and "bad" and just talk about what interests you in them, without passing judgment or assuming one's emotional reactions are shared by anyone outside oneself.

Okay, time to stop reading this stuff and try to actually write something. Which I will try to make perfect to my specifications of perfect, and it doesn't fit your specifications of perfect...that's your bag.

[tesseracta]

Funny you should post this, as I just came back from seeing Inception (which I loved btw).

I feel sad for people who reject things just because they are popular, just because they might be missing out on something good. I have a friend who refuses to read the Harry Potter books because of this.

I also think that you shouldn’t snob on anything unless you’ve bothered to attempt to read/watch at least part of it. So, I can confidently snob on Dan Brown for the rest of my life because I’ve actually read his books. I want to snob on Stephanie Meyer, but I always hold my tongue when she comes up, because I haven’t read her yet.

For normal fiction, I usually don’t begrudge most people their successes, because at least people are reading. I just don't buy or read the book. I usually prefer filet mignon, but sometimes I want McDonalds.

For Sims stories, so much of it is taste, and also maturity levels (not to be mistaken for age) too. I think that it is good the sims inspires people to write, regardless of quality level.

When I was a kid, I’d read anything I could get my hands on. This would include Sweet Valley High and such. But the books that made the hugest impression on my life however, were by authors like Dickens, L’Engle’, Laura Ingalls Wilder, Susan Cooper, JR Tolkien, etc.

I think subjectivity can also surpass the quality of the work itself because of personal associations. I’ve had bands I’ve loved ruined by ex-boyfriends, because whenever I’d hear the music it would evoke the unpleasant feelings from the past. There are some very cheesy movies that I will swear to love for the rest of my life, because I treasured the circumstances surrounding the first time I saw the film.

Maybe the best thing to do is give up even describing films and shots in terms of "good" and "bad" and just talk about what interests you in them, without passing judgment or assuming one's emotional reactions are shared by anyone outside oneself.

I think this is the best way to try to constructively criticize something, actually.

Okay, time to stop reading this stuff and try to actually write something. Which I will try to make perfect to my specifications of perfect, and it doesn't fit your specifications of perfect...that's your bag.

Yay for more Stacy writing!

[bunnylita]

Every time a heavily hyped movie like Inception and The Dark Knight comes out, there seems to be this discussion (which then turns into an argument) about how good or bad the films are.

Just to put it out there, I didn't like The Dark Knight. I didn't like Batman Begins either. But the thing is, I'm not saying they're bad movies. Just not my cup of tea. I've loved everything else by Nolan I've seen, and I like his style. Those two movies just did not work for me for whatever reason. I think people don't quite get that just because they didn't like something doesn't make the movie bad. I don't go around telling people not to see those movies. But if anyone asks my opinion on them, I will surely give them my opinion.

Also, it just bothers me when people don't like things or refuse to see them because they're popular. I've heard people say they didn't want to see Inception because it's so overhyped. But how will they know how overhyped it is if they don't see it? It doesn't make sense. It would be different if they said they didn't want to see it because they don't like Christopher Nolan movies or Leonardo DiCaprio's acting doesn't do much for them. Those are legitimate concerns in my opinion. I didn't see Avatar not because everyone else saw it, but despite what looked like awesome special effects, it just didn't appeal to me. And 3D gives me headaches.

In the end everyone has opinions. I just wish more people would think about why they think what they think and if it really holds up under close inspection.

[lissa]

My first post here - I can identify a lot with the "literature v.s. genre" article. A lot of academics don't have any respect for genre literature, and make no distinction between the bottom of the barrel pulp fiction - Dungeons and Dragons novels, for instance - and the well-written, award-winning genre fiction, like Neil Gaiman, J.R.R. Tolkien, or Philip Pullman. It really irritates me how some authors are snobby about genre fiction, like Margaret Atwood. Personally, I think some of Margaret Atwood's work is brilliant, and some of it is crap, but some of her best books could be considered science-fiction. But because science-fiction is about "rocketships and dinosaurs" (her words, not mine), it's somehow lower than literary fiction.

On a personal standpoint, I had an art history class last year, with the worst art snob I have ever met as tutorial leader. She was horrible. According to her, the value of great works of art like the Mona Lisa or the David was diminished because they were popular with the masses. Letting common plebs look at great works of art diminished the value of them. She loved Damien Hirst, the Piss Christ, and the "artiste de merde" because most people were disgusted or turned off by their work. I took great offense to this, partly because I'm one of the poor plebs, and also because I believe that museums should be a tool for education, as well as preserving art and artifacts. I wanted to work in a museum, but that class was so horrible it turned me off completely. I still love art, and I still think art shouldn't be just for the wealthy and elite. But I failed the class. On the other hand, I had a professor who hated modernist literature because it was done to be deliberately unappealing (in his words, like a giant middle finger sticking up from the page), and a professor who told the class to not write like a textbook.

I admit I can be a snob, but I mostly have very strong preferences, and I won't like something just because I'm supposed to like it. I also like some stuff that's complete garbage, so maybe I don't have very high standards. I recently read all this stuff about Cassandra Clare, talking about how she plagiarized in her fanfiction days, also saying that she was a hack writer. Guess what? I still like the Mortal Instruments series. I admit it's not the best writing, but I enjoyed the books, and thought they were fun. I even liked the mythology she developed for her story world. So I guess I'm not that easily influenced by popular opinion.

[thelunarfox]

Aug 18, 2010 19:45:00 GMT -5 lissa said:

A lot of academics don't have any respect for genre literature, and make no distinction between the bottom of the barrel pulp fiction - Dungeons and Dragons novels, for instance - and the well-written, award-winning genre fiction, like Neil Gaiman, J.R.R. Tolkien, or Philip Pullman.

I think that's my main objection to classifications. I think that there is an understated prejudice sometimes. Someone can read something by Gaiman and still not qualify it as literature because he's a weird comic book guy who writes genre fiction.

And uhm, WOW, your art teacher was a douche. I'm amazed. I've had some mean teachers, but never someone who'd say something like that.


Welcome to the forum! You should post an introduction thread so we can all welcome pile you. ;D

[Stacy]

I read and replied to Drew's post about Sims 2 vs Sims 3 stories and then I was telling meowzbark about the prejudice against legacies back in the day when I was hawking my first legacy, and I realized.

That's why I have problems with it. That's why this is an issue for me.

I see it as prejudice. And I HATE prejudice. I mean, I try to not judge anyone or hate on anyone but I really have to struggle to have empathy for bigots. And if you looked at my shelves you'd see that I try my best to understand it - I have Why We Hate, The Nature of Prejudice, etc.

My instincts and gut emotional responses don't seem to really see a difference between rejecting a story because of a surface reason like the game it was made with or the genre or the medium or who wrote it or whatever and rejecting a person because of what color their skin is or who they're attracted to or how much money they have or where they were born.

Do note that I'm not saying my rational brain doesn't see a difference. Obviously there is a huge moral difference between being prejudiced against Sims stories or legacies or one version of the Sims or whatever and hating on people. Really freaking huge difference.

But the more primitive part of my brain is all "OMG stereotypes and assumptions and prejudice!!!! HATE!!!! RAEG!!!!!"

And I ain't gonna lie. Probably when people make assumptions about my work based on the medium or where I choose to publish it or my lack of professional connections - my creative writing education consists of two semesters of creative writing in high school and tagging along to a night class at the local community college with my mother when I was nine - or anything connected to social status, it clicks the class prejudice lever in my brain. And it's like I'm back in drive-thru, getting treated like I have less intelligence than your average amoeba by people who are illiterate and innumerate and make me read the menu to them.

[drew]

Good topic, and oh so true. I guess that was really the topic of my post at my main blog, about sims 2 Vs 3 stories, subjectivity and yes...prejudice, like that person telling me they won't read sims 2 stories anymore, only sims 3. That blew me away.
Then, I thought...I have some prejudices as well, not crazy about legacies. I looked at my reading list...nope, no legacies. have I really tried to read any?
Yeesh. No. Not really, Guilty. I am going to rectify that.

I got a particularly scathing email over a year ago, the person slammed my stories, saying there was too much sickening romance, it was dreck, etc...
Did I get mad? Ok, Yes, for a minute. Did I go into a fetal position? I surprised myself, I didn't, it made me more determined to do the stories I want to do, stories that entertain ME.
Did I respond to her email? After I calmed down, I did. I said, basically, 'so don't read and comment, go away.' She did.
I can respect someone's preferences, but as you say, they don't have to be nasty about it.

Stacy! I put my shyness away! I made a post on a forum!

[thelunarfox]

Drew, you posted! ;D I have to say I am very much liking to hear your views on forum topics.

I gave some thought too to my own prejudices, and I realize that I'm the same when it comes to legacies. I have tried reading them though. It just doesn't stick. I feel bad about that because there are good legacy stories out there.

And I used to be prejudiced about romance novels too when I was younger. My oldest sister loved them, but being my oldest sister, that's not exactly a point in their favors, lol. Then I did give it a try and read a few when I was in high school and came to the conclusion that while it isn't for me, I could completely understand it.

But I'd like to say right now Drew that I always appreciate you "romance eye" that you bring to things.

[drew]

Hey Lunar!

I used to be prejudiced about romance novels too, I will admit to being on the dark side of 40 (I wonder if I am the oldest one here? *snort*)
I only started reading romance novels about 4 years ago. I used to sneer about the 'bodice rippers', but, I changed my mind. So much so I have my own romance blog, and review some romance novels for another romance blog.
Who knows Lunar, maybe in 10 years, you will pick up "The Highlander's Secret Lover" and find you like it!! LOL!
Again, all personal taste, like I said, like how you take your coffee or tea.
And thanks about the 'romance eye'!!

[pinkfiend1]

Now you see I tend to stick to Legacies and other challenge stories, mainly with a story based plot because I like knowing the format and that there's an end in sight. It also makes it seem more Simmy. Hence why I tend to read mainly Sims 3 blogs purely because I am more familar with that game now so I can identify more with it, and I won't now deliberatly read a Sims 2 blog unless I like the authors work, and granted I am more prone to leaving them to the bottom of the list.
Same goes for the ore story based blogs, I won't read them unless I know the author because they tend to have less pictures and I find that concentrating on very plot heavy things on the computer screen makes me feel funny. Then again I do avoid deep meaningful books because I can't concentrate on words that way, I need to be able to see or hear the deep things in a movie or song to fully grasp it. I just do regardless of how good the writing is or how much I like the author; but I am more likely to persevere if I like the author or if I think I should.

[tesseracta]

I like them all, yes indeed.

I do like legacies and challenges because I'm a huge fan of video games, and the Sims 3. My favorite blogs are either very funny, teach me new tricks for the game, and/or intergrate plot into the ruleset.

Reading about other people's joy and discoveries with the Sims 3, brings me joy too. I never played Sims 2, so any blog based around the gameplay I wouldn't be able to relate to as much. My mind isn't closed to them or anything.

For stories, it doesn't matter if Sims 2 or 3 is used to illustrate. Maybe it is because I like graphic novels, but I have to confess that I do like the pictures. I find it fascinating how people get their screenshots.

I never really considered online text stories before either, but I love what Stacy is doing with 10. It is fun to see the story progress in serial form too.

My only issue with sim stories, is that some of them are so good it makes me question why I'm wasting my time doing what I'm doing. (The answer is because it's fun!)