Going past your boundaries

[Stacy]

I am feeling rather alienated and sort of angry and all weird at the moment, and I figure that's a good time to think about Seth.

So I took a notebook to the couch and started brainstorming based on what elements have already shown up in the first 100 words of 10.07 and also trying to work in some stuff from previous chapters.

And yeah - I cannot stand the thought of harm coming to non-humans. One reason I stopped looking at urban exploration stuff years ago was pics of cats found in the buildings who had not died natural deaths.

Thus far, though it might change when I start making the actual words, no actual harm is going to come to a non-human. But still, I'm coming a lot closer to that subject than I ever wanted to.

What are your borders? Do you ever cross them, and if so, how does that feel?

As for how I feel - it may be just my general alienated detached mood at the moment, but I'm kind of looking forward to seeing just how far down into the dark I can go.

[rad]

You know you're not isolated, right? But maybe you're just in the Seth groove, in which case work it for your update and then return to Stacy when it's done.

I'm curious why harm to an animal is harder for you than harm to a human. I know it is for many people, but I was just wondering why that is. Seth's a scientist, right? I wonder where his scientific fascination comes into his obsession with death and whether that plays into his attitude towards animal killing, regardless of whether that attitude is pro- or anti-

Going past boundaries? Hmmm. To be honest I think I probably will find that hard, too. I'm not much of a one for lovey-dovey stuff so writing Nita and Ando in Taken will be a challenge for me. I also think I would struggle to create a character like Gene Hunt (from Life on Mars/Ashes to Ashes) who is a brilliant anti-hero: brave, bold, funny but also (to a degree) sexist, a bit racist and homophobic. I think I'd struggle to write a character whose morals I fundamentally opposed yet who was still likeable. Guess that's not an issue you struggle with too much though

I think I would struggle to write detailed violence or sexual activity - not because I can't imagine the scenes but because I think I'd be too embarrassed about how they'd appear on the page. But who knows? If I wrote a story that demanded it, maybe I would go there.

[pinkfiend1]

You see writing people you are different to me seems so simple in my head. Whether it works on paper is another matter.
But I agree I could quite happily write bodily harm to people, kill them in many fascinating ways, not managing to pull off the wonderful Agatha Christie plots, regardless of how I saw it in my head, but I wouldn't be able to kill animals off.

[Stacy]

Sept 5, 2010 15:42:18 GMT -5 @rad said:

You know you're not isolated, right? But maybe you're just in the Seth groove, in which case work it for your update and then return to Stacy when it's done.

I'm curious why harm to an animal is harder for you than harm to a human. I know it is for many people, but I was just wondering why that is. Seth's a scientist, right? I wonder where his scientific fascination comes into his obsession with death and whether that plays into his attitude towards animal killing, regardless of whether that attitude is pro- or anti-

Going past boundaries? Hmmm. To be honest I think I probably will find that hard, too. I'm not much of a one for lovey-dovey stuff so writing Nita and Ando in Taken will be a challenge for me. I also think I would struggle to create a character like Gene Hunt (from Life on Mars/Ashes to Ashes) who is a brilliant anti-hero: brave, bold, funny but also (to a degree) sexist, a bit racist and homophobic. I think I'd struggle to write a character whose morals I fundamentally opposed yet who was still likeable. Guess that's not an issue you struggle with too much though

I think I would struggle to write detailed violence or sexual activity - not because I can't imagine the scenes but because I think I'd be too embarrassed about how they'd appear on the page. But who knows? If I wrote a story that demanded it, maybe I would go there.

Awww - you're so sweet and nice and I love you lots. *hugs*

And as for knowing I'm not isolated - it comes and goes. Far better for me to channel it into Seth when it comes than to mope around and whine and get on people's nerves, eh?

Oh, I've spent many hours thinking about the human/other species dichotomy and why I kill Sims with glee but won't let them have pets because I can't even handle pixels that look like dogs and cats dying.

I'm thinking of all the ways I've rationalized it through my life, but I think in the end it's just a gut emotional reaction that I can't really explain.

Except maybe...maybe it comes down to other species being innocent, but humans having the capacity to know when they do something that's evil. And still choosing to do evil things.

It's only in the last few years that it's dawned on me that maybe not everyone knows what they're doing and maybe they really don't have the moral and emotional capacity to understand the suffering of others. I started researching moral development theories and realized that what I thought was normal was actually fairly rare, that actually most people don't read every book on the Holocaust in the local library when they're nine and formulate theories of ethics and morality based on that early exposure to the worst that humans are capable of.

And no, it wasn't the Holocaust books for kids - I remember Martin Gray's For Those I Loved and a thick white hardback titled Treblinka. I remember reading about human heads boiling in a pot and the Sonderkommando breaking the necks of the kids who survived the gassing because that was a better death than suffocating in the mass grave.

Oooh, I was so mad when I'd go to the library with my daycare and they wouldn't let me go to the adult stacks. Telling them that my mother let me check out whatever I wanted didn't do anything. So I'd sit in the baby book area, feeling a blazing rage towards injustice that I would come to know well, and be all resentful and work on developing my anti-authority attitude.

I was not the happiest nine year old - I remember hearing my mother talking on the phone about how she didn't know what to do with me and being terrified that she was giving me up for adoption. Turned out she was signing me up for Big Brother Big Sister.

You know - I've never thought about Seth's stance on killing other species. I can't see him having huge issues about it the way I do. I imagine he wouldn't really care one way or the other and would be willing to do it if necessary for his alchemical research. And since I am keeping the thing where he has to kill people to make the elixir of life - he may have to.

LOL - when I thought about writing a character whose morals I'm opposed to, I thought of Gunky more than Seth.

And...*blushes* I was going to say I'd have trouble with detailed sexual activity too but then I remembered I've done it before. Although it's true that wasn't for general consumption and it might be an entirely different thing to share it with anonymous readers.

I'm also coming to the conclusion that really I'd probably be willing to try anything if the story demanded it.

[thelunarfox]

Actually, I'm with you on the animal thing. I can't bear to hear about bad things that have happened to animals. But I'm the same way with children too-- the younger they are the worse it is. So I've come to the conclusion that it's innocence and dependence. It's just completely senseless to me to hurt a person or animal that is completely harmless. (Or mostly completely, I know cats have claw and teeth, but still, compared to what a human has it's not enough.)

I don't know if I could write about animal abuse. Probably hint at it, but I couldn't graphically describe it. And from what I have read, that's something of an understated rule. It's a turn off for a lot of people, one of those hot button things that is just gut reaction.

Child abuse though, that's something else. I've hinted heavily that Jimmy was abused as a kid, but I've never graphically shown it. It's possible that something might slip out while writing about the character, and that seems different to me than writing about animals being abused. I wouldn't relish it, but it's a little less bad I think because it would be filtered through the eyes of an adult if it came out. But most likely it won't come out though. Not in that way.

[drew]

Good topic, borders, and when to cross them, if you want to cross them at all? I had a moment in Crime Story, (takes place in 1969) when an African American character was confronted by a biker, and he was going to call him the 'N' word. I can't say it aloud, let alone type it in a story. So, maybe it wasn't as steeped in reality for the era, but, that was one line or boundary I would not cross.
I do have my lines in the sand with regard to writing, and Sim Stories in particular.
And I pretty much stick to them.

[meowzbark]

I was thinking about this topic a few days ago. Glad you made a topic about it.

For the taboo topics, I treat them like horror movies. What makes a better horror movie, one that overwelms you with blood and gore or one that alludes to it. The Ring scared the shit out of me. I don't think there was any actual violence, but I'm not about to watch it again to find out. Rosemary's Baby scared me. Silence of the Lambs...Hannibal scared me the entire time, even though most of it he was locked away.

I refuse to write out violence against children or women. I refuse to write out sexual fetishes or hard porn. I wouldn't write about animal cruelty.

That said, I would write a piece that makes the reader assume that this happened. One of the chapters I wrote with Dachi, she woke up with bruises. She blamed herself for what her husband did to her; most readers would conclude that she had been abused. But I can't bring myself to actually write out the scene. For animal cruelty, I wouldn't mind writing about someone discovering a corpse that had been tortured...but I can't visualize harming a creature. I like being in the mind of my characters but not when they violate my morals.

I read Night by Elie Wiesel...it's about him surviving the holocaust. Even with a horrible topic like that, there was a part that affected him so much he couldn't write it....it was when the Nazis seperated his family. Boys from girls. Like seperating cattle. The last time he ever saw his mother.

[jenssims]

wow what an interesting topic.

I used to think I could never write a 'naughty' scene in Sims. Well, I started in Sims 2, but of course that wasn't so bad cause I never uploaded to the Sims 2.com (well, I couldn't anyhow 'cause it was too naughty, but not porn-type naughty).

Then I started my Riverview series in May, lol. At first, the love scenes weren't too naughty. But then I kept pushing the envelope every time, haha. And now my Bloodlust series will have even more romance in it, with naughtiness and I will push the envelope even more, at least some. And as for violence, that also got worse in my Riverview series as time went on. Bloodlust will be kinda bad with violence, since the characters are vampires.

Sometimes it's frustrating because you post an age limit on your blog (mine says readers shouldn't be under 17) and you know damn well that there's kids on there, lol. So what are you supposed to do? You have to keep censoring yourself to an extent. And you can just tell some of the people writing the comments are young.

lol, sorry to ramble. ;D

[rad]

Well, as I see it, the game has a teen rating so no-one under that age should be playing anyway (I know they are, but that's not our responsibility). And teens are pretty savvy. I know what I was reading/watching when I was that age and I haven't seen anything on anyone's blogs that was worse than that. But I do feel conscious about what I put into stories I link to on Boolprop given the teens-plus feel of the place. I think if Taken were to get graphic I would put some kind of warning on those entries or do a Rachel and take the thread off.

That said, Operation: Population has so much innuendo in it that it's far naughtier than anything explicitly rude.

[laura]

I used to have boundaries, and I think my character April broke just about most of them, lol! It's funny how we start out cautious, and then progressively push our boundaries in regards to some things. That's partly why I think writing my whole series has been great exercise for my "serious" writing as well, because it helps me stretch those boundaries, and what I bring to my serious writing now is much braver than it was when I started.

That said though, we all have lines, right? I feel like I'm terrible at writing violence, because I have so little experience of it (thankfully, lol!). I've never been in a real fight myself. Ever! And the first very graphic fight I saw was when I was 22.

I'm definitely a lover, not a fighter!

In conclusion then, I don't think I have any lines in regards to writing sex. There is plenty in terms of sex that I haven't written... but it's more like, haven't written *yet* lol! (<= gutter brain)

Hard drug use - that's the only line I think I tend to be pretty firm on, mostly just because I have like, ZERO experience with anything harder than a little wacky-tobacky, if you know what I mean, lol! If I tried to write a scene where someone was shooting up or snorting some coke, I'd most certainly make a complete fool of myself!

I've also been concerned about younger teens showing up and reading my blog. One of my longtime readers was only 16 when he started reading, and he admitted to being kind of shocked at some things, so I put the 17+ warning on my blog sidebar. That's really all I can do though. I refuse to put that Blogger warning "click yes if you're over 14" or whatever, because I personally find it annoying on other blogs, lol! (No offense to those who have it - consider it a compliment that I love your work enough to go through the hassle every single time!)

It's up to the parents to keep an eye on what their kids are doing on the internet, right? It's not my job.

[jenssims]

Sept 9, 2010 7:39:26 GMT -5 @rad said:

Well, as I see it, the game has a teen rating so no-one under that age should be playing anyway (I know they are, but that's not our responsibility). And teens are pretty savvy. I know what I was reading/watching when I was that age and I haven't seen anything on anyone's blogs that was worse than that. But I do feel conscious about what I put into stories I link to on Boolprop given the teens-plus feel of the place. I think if Taken were to get graphic I would put some kind of warning on those entries or do a Rachel and take the thread off.

That said, Operation: Population has so much innuendo in it that it's far naughtier than anything explicitly rude.

I totally agree with everything you said. Also, I know what you mean because when I was a teen I read some questionable novels and saw stuff in movies/TV also that was far worse than anything I've ever written. Lolz. I know what you mean about innuendo too. I had plenty of that in my first series

[jenssims]

Sept 9, 2010 12:00:13 GMT -5 @laura said:

I used to have boundaries, and I think my character April broke just about most of them, lol! It's funny how we start out cautious, and then progressively push our boundaries in regards to some things. That's partly why I think writing my whole series has been great exercise for my "serious" writing as well, because it helps me stretch those boundaries, and what I bring to my serious writing now is much braver than it was when I started.

That said though, we all have lines, right? I feel like I'm terrible at writing violence, because I have so little experience of it (thankfully, lol!). I've never been in a real fight myself. Ever! And the first very graphic fight I saw was when I was 22.

I'm definitely a lover, not a fighter!

In conclusion then, I don't think I have any lines in regards to writing sex. There is plenty in terms of sex that I haven't written... but it's more like, haven't written *yet* lol! (<= gutter brain)

Hard drug use - that's the only line I think I tend to be pretty firm on, mostly just because I have like, ZERO experience with anything harder than a little wacky-tobacky, if you know what I mean, lol! If I tried to write a scene where someone was shooting up or snorting some coke, I'd most certainly make a complete fool of myself!

I've also been concerned about younger teens showing up and reading my blog. One of my longtime readers was only 16 when he started reading, and he admitted to being kind of shocked at some things, so I put the 17+ warning on my blog sidebar. That's really all I can do though. I refuse to put that Blogger warning "click yes if you're over 14" or whatever, because I personally find it annoying on other blogs, lol! (No offense to those who have it - consider it a compliment that I love your work enough to go through the hassle every single time!)

It's up to the parents to keep an eye on what their kids are doing on the internet, right? It's not my job.

Yes it is up to the parents. And I agree, I don't want to have to put that warning page on my blog either, lol. I also have a warning that clearly explains what sort of content is in my stories, and for those under 17 not to view. I have this warning on both my blogs, and also list warnings before every chapter that has disturbing/sexual content. Dang, I try lol. Here's a story: One chapter I had up on my Riverview series was about the main male character posing for Playgirl (LOL). I edited the pics to make him look naked, yet placed props in front of him (like footballs, haha). Later in the chapter he has a telephone conversation with the heroine, explaining in so many words that he had a hard-on in the pics, of course I was a little more discrete about it in the actual story. Anyhow, I had a warning at the beginning of this chapter, and some girl wrote in the comments section saying that the chapter was a little 'too sexual' for her.

As far as it goes for writing sex, dang I'm such a perv because I LOVE writing about sex. I never used to, it took everything I had just to type certain words on a page! But I got over that. ;D

[sb]

I have only two boundaries I won't cross.

First Boundary: I'm with Stacy about causing pain to non human animals. I'll never go there.

Second Boundary: Child molestation. Rape. Any of that.

Apart from that, we write about sex and we show full frontal nudity when we feel it's appropriate and we will continue to do it. We have the blogger adult warning up and some other warning type notices as well, but I'm not jumping up and down and screaming warning warning danger danger at some kid who wanders in. I'm a parent. But I'm also an adult woman and I don't write for children.

[raquelaroden]

I don't know my boundaries yet....I know there are certain things I don't feel comfortable writing about or describing, but I don't know that I won't push it later. I won't knowingly violate any content rules--which is why I pulled the Ed Prescott series off of Boolprop. I have no wish to have kids reading my story if they aren't ready for the content (I read a lot of graphic stuff when I was pretty young, so I guess I'm not as worried...). I was more interested in where my story was going than in getting a wider readership--and I think that's what is going to dictate how far I take it out of my comfort-zone too. I'm more interested in where my story is going than in being completely comfortable whenever I click the "Publish" button.

[heredoncove]

I've never really thought about what my boundaries are for writing and its probably because I haven't pushed myself to the point where I have to confront them yet. I'm not sure I would consider writing about sex one of my boundaries even though it was very hard for me to write about in my last update. My biggest problem was figuring out what was too much, too little, tasteful or obscene.

[Stacy]

So for some reason I've been thinking about Sarah and Seth a lot lately, and I may take a tiny bit of a break from 10 (may do 10.08 first) and, well - write a fairly explicit Sarah/Seth scene and stash it away with the draft of the Sarah POV zombie apocalypse story.

I would not expect everyone in the world to read that, omg - can you imagine how dark that could get?

I've had the Smashing Pumpkins song Ava Adore on repeat one at work lately - it includes the line "You'll be a lover in my bed, and a gun to my head". And this morning I just thought of Lady Gaga's Poker Face - "Russian roulette is not the same without a gun, and baby when it comes to love if it's not rough it isn't fun".

Giving Bad Romance a listen now.

Oh man, though, talk about crossing boundaries - but just like before, I'm kind of looking forward to it.

OMG, Muse's Time is Running Out is freaking perfect!

*goes to make a Sarah/Seth playlist*

[celebkiriedhel]

I've been thinking about many things lately - mostly because I'm getting ready to write regularly, and the story in my head has a number of technical issues to deal with.

That being said - there's also a number of issues that I'm going to be including in my story that I'm not sure how it's going to be taken.

I've written rape scenes before, and violence and I'm ok with writing those although I'm not really intending to include a lot of that in this story.

But I will be including prejudice and stereotyping, religious intolerance, sexual intolerance, and the clashing of world paradigms.

I think it's easier for me to write about sex and violence than it is write about hate and intolerance and injustice.

So there's a boundary that I'm working on crossing. And it's really got me quivering in my boots.

[jenssims]

Sept 30, 2010 20:54:23 GMT -5 @celebkiriedhel said:

I've been thinking about many things lately - mostly because I'm getting ready to write regularly, and the story in my head has a number of technical issues to deal with.

That being said - there's also a number of issues that I'm going to be including in my story that I'm not sure how it's going to be taken.

I've written rape scenes before, and violence and I'm ok with writing those although I'm not really intending to include a lot of that in this story.

But I will be including prejudice and stereotyping, religious intolerance, sexual intolerance, and the clashing of world paradigms.

I think it's easier for me to write about sex and violence than it is write about hate and intolerance and injustice.

So there's a boundary that I'm working on crossing. And it's really got me quivering in my boots.

Sounds like you're fixing to write an interesting story, Kiri. Very VERY interesting. ;D I for one can't wait to read it!

[celebkiriedhel]

I'm hoping it will be interesting. And I'm hoping I won't have a lynch mob of angry readers coming after me.

[laura]

Kiri, agreed! It sounds very interesting!

And yes, it is very hard to write! I've kind of written myself an out with LH by setting it in the future, I can say we've all grown past certain intolerances (like skin color and certain culture divides). I don't do religious topics probably because there's a lot of that in my novel and I don't want to burn myself out, lol!

But yes, prejudice and hate is a scary thing to write, and I do see myself having to confront that in LH at some point, so I'll be terrified right along with you! I think the thing that worries me most is pulling it off, getting into the mind of someone who could hate like that and writing them convincingly. I think that may be one boundary I haven't crossed before.