|
|
Post by hrootbeer on Feb 6, 2011 16:38:29 GMT -5
Summary of the ArchetypeI was thinking about the typical hero story archetype the other day and I was trying to apply it to my Sims blog. Specifically I wondered if I used any of it at all since my story is a legacy and therefore not terribly deep or rich in plot. We've had a few threads on character development and plotting, and I wondered if people knew of this archetype or used it. Personally, I love it for novels and novellas. Sometimes it works for short stories. I think it would lend itself well to epoch style Sims stories...what do you think? Referring to my legacy story, I think I pay most attention to the parts of the archetype when the main character is going out on his or her own, faces some sort of conflict that causes them to question his or her self, and reaches the "lowest" point in their life. After that, I suppose my characters have a sort of "return" to normal living. Where I'm not sure if I can qualify my stories as hero journeys is related to their "abyss" or "belly of the whale" moment. Honestly, I just don't think the conflicts my Sims face are of the magnitude that puts them in danger of dying. But do they have to? I don't know. |
|
|
|
Post by hrootbeer on Feb 6, 2011 16:42:49 GMT -5
Oh, in case people don't want to read the summary linked in the previous post, the Hero's journey is a cyclical archetype that most hero stories follow. The archetype theory was created by Joseph Campbell and then followed quite deliberately by George Lucas in Star Wars. Joseph Campbell used it to show similarities in hero legends and myths. George wanted Star Wars and Luke's journey to be mythical. Since Star Wars, Disney has applied the hero's journey to a lot of the modern Disney stories. You can see it in The Lion King, The Princess and the Frog, and most of the others.
|
|
|
|
Post by infinitygoddess on Feb 6, 2011 16:52:29 GMT -5
I think this is most relevant to one of my graphic novels and one of my Sim stories that I did a while ago and completed where the Heroic Archtype is used. It's certainly true in my graphic novel series One Life where the hero of the story (or the protagonist) is making a journey, both physical and mental, to decide whether or not to claim what is rightfully his by birthright.
The finished Sim story I have, The Last Knight, is where a man from an ancient warrior clan has to defeat the enemies of both his family and his mystical friends, and ensure that his family's property is never given to anyone for the hidden dangers and secrets to outsiders that the family castle possesses.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stacy on Feb 6, 2011 20:46:21 GMT -5
Ooh! I did a lot of research on this when I started to see this structure in Valley! So much so that when I saw it was the latest post I wondered if someone had bumped up a thread from back in the day, lol. But no - I think that was pre-VSS and I posted about it on my LJ. I can't find a Hero's Journey specific post - I've never been good with using tags. But here's one I found again recently that explains Lilith's journey. Major Valley EpiphanyI like to think that Valley played with the idea in some ways - ways that I totally did not see or think about it at the time. But yeah - as opposed to going on a quest for a plant that gives immortality, she goes on a quest to destroy the man who wants the plant that gives immortality. She refuses the ambrosia. I think that if you see it in your legacy story, it's there. And yeah - the basic idea is a personal journey of disintegration and reintegration. And I think that's like a basic plot of most stories, because it's what life is for most of us. I'm finding that lately the idea of the phoenix is really speaking to me. Thank you Beth, for bringing it up in relation to Seth! Because really - it seems that's what life is. Disintegration, reintegration into a new form, and then when the new form runs into problems - disintegrate and reintegrate again. Always striving to grow, never reaching perfection. |
|
|
|
Post by celebkiriedhel on Feb 6, 2011 21:08:51 GMT -5
I agree with Stacey - I think that it's a major life lesson, so it appears in some form in most every story I've ever read.
On the other hand, I prefer stories where they haven't done this intentionally - because they feel more real.
Stories that are shoe-horned to fit an archetype rarely feel real to me. (Hence my love-hate relationship with Star Wars)
Although I have to say - Lion King is one of my favourite films, because of Scar and the great music. Oh and Puumba and Timon.
|
|
|
|
Post by sb on Feb 6, 2011 21:09:10 GMT -5
Stacy, you're welcome...nothing else seemed appropriate for Seth.
Thank you hrootbeer for starting such interesting threads.
|
|
|
|
Post by hrootbeer on Feb 6, 2011 21:28:34 GMT -5
Although I have to say - Lion King is one of my favourite films, because of Scar and the great music. Oh and Puumba and Timon. I used to hate The Lion King until I started using it to illustrate the HJ with my students. The only thing I liked about it before really thinking about the story was Scar and the hyenas (how about a cub sandwich?!) But the whole story is classic HJ. To me it doesn't feel forced, either, but the Disney creators said that they had the cycle in mind when they wrote it. |
|
|
|
Post by celebkiriedhel on Feb 7, 2011 2:28:25 GMT -5
I think it's really clear that they had that it mind - but the thing I notice with HJ's where they have that in mind, is that the thing that stands out from the reader's point of view - isn't the hero, but the sidekicks and the villains. The hero becomes 2-dimensional (well I thought Simba was 2d) and the interesting characters are the ones that they haven't really thought about, but go on a journey themselves.
Stories like Stacey's where the HJ is fitted to the story, rather than the other way around - the main character stands out as interesting.
Maybe that's a huge generalisation, and I'm willing to accept that I'm wrong - but that's how it feels to me.
|
|
|
|
Post by hrootbeer on Feb 7, 2011 9:35:46 GMT -5
I think it's really clear that they had that it mind - but the thing I notice with HJ's where they have that in mind, is that the thing that stands out from the reader's point of view - isn't the hero, but the sidekicks and the villains. The hero becomes 2-dimensional (well I thought Simba was 2d) and the interesting characters are the ones that they haven't really thought about, but go on a journey themselves. Stories like Stacey's where the HJ is fitted to the story, rather than the other way around - the main character stands out as interesting. Maybe that's a huge generalisation, and I'm willing to accept that I'm wrong - but that's how it feels to me. Although I think that not all stories using the pattern have 2d characters, I do believe that you are right for the majority. Luke is a whiny baby who doesn't grow until nearly the last second of the last movie. He returns a hero, but one doesn't really feel like he deserves that much praise. He's still young...there's a lot more to do in his life. Simba is the same way. Personally, I like Aristotle's tragic hero better than the hero in the HJ, but I like it when my heroes live. So perhaps the more 3d heroes are the ones who combine both heroic genres. BTW, I'm not sure if there is a good summary site for Aristotle's formula of tragedy and the tragic hero. |
|
|
|
Post by celebkiriedhel on Feb 7, 2011 17:35:20 GMT -5
What sort of journey would you say that Frodo has? (Lord of the Rings)
He certainly changes and grows - but there's never really a true refusal of call. His is more that he accepts a little bit, then finds he has more to do at each stage. He grows in maturity and so on as the story comes to a close - but he never wins. He wins for others - the pain of his knife wound takes away most of the win for him, until at last he travels to the grey havens. Which I suppose is a metaphor for death? I know the grey havens chapters are the ones that have me continuously crying.
I've always felt that he, and the others in LOTR are a type of hero that just isn't popular nowadays in critiquing/academic circles. The good man who struggles to do good, without drifting into evil or badness due to personal weaknesses. (With the exception of Boromir, who still manages to redeem himself in death). It was the one of the things that I struggled with in the movies - the addition of selfishness into many of the characters to make it fit more into the shape that most pictures are in.
I don't know - I may be talking complete and utter tosh here - but it seems to me that there is more than one type of hero's journey. I've never really gone into looking at the research on HJ's - so e.g. I've never heard of Aristotle's tragic hero (although I suspect I'd prefer them too). Are there more than just Joseph Campbell and Aristotle?
|
|
|
|
Post by Stacy on Feb 7, 2011 18:05:45 GMT -5
Look at me, on a roll with coming back and reading threads. Who knows, I may just go and read the art and society one at some point. OMG Kiri - I love the LOTR movies but I hate what they did to the Ents and Faramir. Movie!Faramir is not even worthy of Eowyn. I found this comparison between female and male journeys. Hero's vs Heroine's JourneyI found this thing about Aristotle. Aristotle's Tragic TermsI figure there's got to be some from non-Western cultures, you know? A quick googling didn't turn up anything - I'll try again after dinner. |
|
|
|
Post by hrootbeer on Feb 7, 2011 18:33:18 GMT -5
Look at me, on a roll with coming back and reading threads. Who knows, I may just go and read the art and society one at some point. OMG Kiri - I love the LOTR movies but I hate what they did to the Ents and Faramir. Movie!Faramir is not even worthy of Eowyn. I found this comparison between female and male journeys. Hero's vs Heroine's JourneyI found this thing about Aristotle. Aristotle's Tragic TermsI figure there's got to be some from non-Western cultures, you know? A quick googling didn't turn up anything - I'll try again after dinner. That's a pretty good summation of what Aristotle wrote in Poetica, where he goes into the rules of tragedy. I take the view on Aristotle that the audience is a participant in the tragedy story in that the emotions the main character goes through are also shared by the audience. And, since often the character dies at the end of the tragedy, the audience is the only "character" left to experience the last part of the tragic cycle (release or purging of the negative emotions). In Sims stories, the ones that I really like the best are the ones where I am sort of a participant in the story. I feel with/for the characters. Perhaps the Joseph Campbell HJ hero doesn't seem as real a character is because the audience doesn't really get invested in the journey. We're just watching/reading from the outside. |
|
|
|
Post by mdpthatsme on Feb 11, 2011 1:01:20 GMT -5
I think of "hero's journey" as part of character building...unless, that is, it is character deteriorating, like bringing down a main character or villain. For instance, I think in the Avatar series (the Last Airbender) Book 3: Fire Nation was a character deteriorating of Izula, her character starts to fall apart and become...crazier than usual. (Lion King=fav Disney) (Mufasa WOOEEEEEHA!) Frodo's journey is somewhat complicated then at the same time (shaking head) not so complicated. He's brave, scared, brave, giving in to the ring, being brave, then...just being Frodo. If Sam hadn't been there, I don't think Frodo would have succeeded. Love the series though and the movies. Orlando Bloom  I still think its funny that the big bad dudes were a giant eyeball and a wedding band. HAHA! Either people are easily scared/paranoid or Tolkien was a genius! (voting that Tolkien was a genius)  |
|
