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Post by laura on Nov 30, 2010 16:35:48 GMT -5
Who, lot of replies, lol! Sorry, I had to go shopping. I'll pick at this little by little. I think hoping that someone will read what you write and like it is different from writing for people. I'd view the fact that people like what I write as a very happy side effect. And I don't think the fact that I posted my story online means that I wanted to write for people. It meant that I wanted reactions to my writing, but not that I was searching for someone to write for. Yes, I'm probably being stubborn on this.  Truly, I probably do both, but I think I lean far more on the "I write for myself" side of the continuum. There's some part of me that needs to believe that I'd still find this rewarding even if no one ever read it. That doesn't conflict with admitting that it is SO awesome and rewarding that people do actually read my stuff, and that I found an amazing group of friends through my experiment with putting my stuff out there so that others could read it. Rachel, I get that want to know that you'd still do it. In fact, I'm a little disturbed at myself for feeling that I wouldn't, lol! It's kind of silly to speculate one way or the other, since I highly doubt I'll ever be in a position where I would have absolutely no readers and no chance of ever having them. If I were stuck on an island in the middle of an ocean, and nobody was ever coming to rescue me, but I had a pen and some paper, would I write these things down? Or if there was a mass extinction and I was the only one left alive, would I still write my stories? I'm not sure if I would. But maybe I'd surprise myself. There might be aliens out there!!! lol! |
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Post by laura on Nov 30, 2010 16:43:00 GMT -5
And the famous popular writers would bleat their little "You should write for yourself" baa baas in their sheepy little way, and I'd call them on it. I'd tell them that if they really wrote only for themselves and didn't care about readers, they wouldn't publish it online and advertise it. To be honest, that's the thing that gets to me about people who say they write for themselves. Anyone who well and truly writes 100% for themselves doesn't need to publish anything. Emily Dickinson wrote for herself. And almost all her work was published after she died. I think anyone who is publishing work online (and certainly if they're advertising it!) must be at least writing for the readers in some small way. And agreed, it makes me want to tell them where to stuff their halo too, lol! And no, Drew, you do not fall into this category. |
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Post by raquelaroden on Nov 30, 2010 16:52:02 GMT -5
I don't think anyone here falls into that category. *looks up to see if she has a halo*
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Post by blackdaisies on Nov 30, 2010 16:52:09 GMT -5
Me, I'm writing my story to be read. But it's mine first. I didn't have an audience, I had no other choice but to write for myself and write something I thought I would enjoy. But I wanted to share it and I wanted to know what other people thought of it too, so I advertised it and I wanted feedback. I didn't have a target for the amount of comments (and I guess I wasn't around during the star-ratings, I'm assuming that was the Exchange?), I just wanted to know I was entertaining a few people out there. If I had only one reader, I'd still be writing for that one reader. If I had none... well, then yes I would still be writing for myself. But *I* liked my story, I'd finish it even if I had no readers. It would probably be a bit different, maybe less careful, but I'd still go through with it.
It's difficult... I totally get what Stacy is saying. Once in a while people complain about getting no comments and it's just too easy to say "well write for yourself that's what's most important". But I understand that people want feedback and they want to know they're being read and enjoyed. So instead I'd tell a beginner or someone new to the community "Write for yourself honestly, write something that you would enjoy and don't be afraid to share it in communities and ask for feedback and don't ever quit just because you're not getting an x-number of comments. If you love your work, if you're enjoying what you're doing, that's most important and readers will pick up on that."
However, on the other hand if you are only writing to "get famous", I suppose that's as legitimate a reason to write as any, but it's not something I particularly agree with. Unfortunately this happens... younger writers particularly, only post legacies or stories in the hopes to get famous. I'm not exactly sure why and I definitely can't help them.
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Post by laura on Nov 30, 2010 16:54:19 GMT -5
I really don't think there's anything wrong with sticking to what you want to write or altering it if you find something in your readers' comments that is meaningful, something that strikes you as a place to go, a hole you want to fill. This is what I mean by staying true to the vision as well. I think filling a small hole, or taking a direction when you don't know where the story is going, is different and fine, and I do that too. Accepting and working with feedback from readers is a wonderful thing! But by vision, I mean the overall arc of the story, and what all those pieces add up to in their larger meaning. And Drew, lol: Okay, I'll claim the deep and probing then Hey, no shame in it! I'll openly admit that I attempt to write literature, and so that includes LH as well. I can't help the stuff I write any more than anyone else can help that they write say, vampires, or heaving bosoms, or teen cheerleader dramas, or whatever. (Maybe that's lame, Sim-lit, lol! If it is, I don't care.) Really though, even in Sim stories, there is meaning. Or at least in the ones I read there is. All the different pieces add up to something that we can aspire to make deep and poignant. That's what I mean by vision. And if I change the whole arc of the story (especially if it's a change I don't agree with), then that changes the meaning, and it's no longer true to that vision. Sorry about all the artsy-fartsy talk, lol! You can ignore it if you want. |
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Post by mdpthatsme on Nov 30, 2010 17:05:02 GMT -5
"I'm asking this because I noticed a lot of people in the other thread, and really just writers in general, will often say that they write for themselves - only for themselves. And if other people like it, then fine."That sounds like something I said, it may have been here, I certainly said it enough at my own blog. I realize it sounds selfish at first blush. But I think I was referring to making changes in plots and characters because someone (a reader) has requested it. For example, I got an email some months back, asking me to 'soften' my villain a bit, give him a romantic interest. I didn't. Long story short, this person no longer reads and comments, LOL! So I will continue to portray the characters in plots that interest me, not others. Oh dear, that does sound selfish. What-the-hell in the first place, villians are evil. They're not suppose to be soft! That's a load of crap any ways. Readers don't know the plot...at least we hope they don't get the full gist of everything until it hits them in the face. I've never had a reader tell me what I should do, but I'm sure I wouldn't take it very kindly either. When I said I wrote for both, specifically Sim stories for readers/viewers and prose for myself...I should have explained. Prose writing has no pictures; therefore, you have to expand your creativity in explaining details, expressions, stuff like we all know about. So writing in prose will eventually expand your writing capabilities in different techniques in explaining things. I've gone back to read my manuscripts from a year ago and go "wow, that totally needs a rewrite." So, where am I go with all of this? Writing for yourself is great. Though I do it for many different reasons, mostly writing for yourself has no pressure and you can continue to learn and expand perception in your own writing. It's like being comfortable in your own skin. My Sim stories have advertisement in...I believe now six different sites. Since they're all Sim sites (except this site, it's kinda both Sim and prose), I think it as only logical to advertise for my stories there. I don't advertise my prose writing (except here). It's for me, my pleasure, my everything. That was a little rambling, but oh well.  |
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Post by sb on Nov 30, 2010 17:14:24 GMT -5
Mela, they want it because they want to be part of a group. They want the validation. That's why you see so many secrets from people screaming LOOK AT ME.
I absolutely agree with you. If you want to write, you have to write what you CAN write. If you can't write what sells, then you can't. I have no idea how to judge the market, what people want to read, or how to tell someone how to place and plan what they write for that market. I will say that it is not something any of us can shrug off or pretend does not exist. It does. And it means a lot to all of us. Whether we admit it or not, it does.
There's no way to successfully game it.
Is that any way to write? Uh...well...depends on your motivation. And how good you are. I could never do it. I get too involved in what I want to write. I could never keep that target in place.
and once again, I'm probably going to offend people. Please forgive.
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Post by laura on Nov 30, 2010 17:18:16 GMT -5
I think this is important and goes back to the idea of having confidence in the story you're telling. I don't think I could or would change an essential part of my story simply because my readers hate it. I think once you hit that point you lose yourself as writer. Sometimes your readers can have a good point, especially when they're a group of writers but mostly you know where you're story is going and how it needs to get there. This is just what I mean. Can I quote you when I post that part of my story that I know my readers are going to hate? lol! But yes, I've had to ask myself this question before - knowing a large part of my readers are going to hate it, should I go ahead with it anyway. And yes, I have to. Get your tomatoes ready, people! ETA: and no, I don't mean I'm going to break up Dallas and Lucy, lol! |
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Post by mdpthatsme on Nov 30, 2010 17:34:51 GMT -5
Dear goodness, I think we all need to go to the chat because we're posting one after another. Well, it's nice idea any ways. Ok as an example, one of my manuscripts I'm going to kill off a character and it's going to be a main important character. Readers are going to hate it, hate me momentarily, would I change the face of the story just to soothe the readers' feelings? Absolutely not. It would hurt the plot and everything would be out of proportion. It's MY story and I will write it how I damn well please. |
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Post by heredoncove on Nov 30, 2010 17:49:00 GMT -5
Yes, even though I may be the first person in line with a tomato
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Post by sb on Nov 30, 2010 17:53:18 GMT -5
If I write anything that engages readers to the point they will throw tomatoes, I'll consider myself a successful writer.
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Post by blackdaisies on Nov 30, 2010 17:56:20 GMT -5
@sb, I guess with game/fandom communities, I still don't understand the need to do something just to get "famous" mentality. If I were a CC creator, and all I wanted to do is create hand painted wall papers and hated bodyshop meshing... but the trend at the time were clothing recolours... why would I want to spend any time to do something I hated just to grasp at whatever "fame" is in this community. I guess that's a whole other topic  On the writing side, I couldn't write something I didn't enjoy for a leisure project. There is always a target market for *good* stories regardless of what type of stories those are. I have *my* story (and no I won't change the plotline, ships, or character developments for my readers but I'd respect their opinions and feedback), and that's what I'd like to share. I would probably adjust things like screenshot quality, CC, maybe even writing style, but the story itself is personal. |
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Post by laura on Nov 30, 2010 18:36:37 GMT -5
I don't think anyone here falls into that category. *looks up to see if she has a halo* No, you don't either! |
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dinuriel
Full Member
Torturing characters? Me? Nooo...
Posts: 374
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Post by dinuriel on Nov 30, 2010 18:39:58 GMT -5
Holy shit! I'm only in class for four hours and I come back to find that a whole new thread is thriving!  I'll leave an actual reply later, once I've had a chance to read all of yours. I'm a little tired and sort of just want to veg for a while. Sorry  |
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Post by Stacy on Nov 30, 2010 19:38:27 GMT -5
I saw Twitter talk and then I admit - I haven't read the thread. Just Beth's last three posts from her profile. DREW, OMG!!!! I was not talking about you or anyone else here at all! I love you and you are not a sheep and you are not a hypocrite and you are awesome! I mean - you're the opposite of a sheep. Look at your posts before mine, where you talk about doing what you want and not caring about what people say. I was at work and I didn't have time to go in-depth and I shouldn't have posted it but I am so freaking sleep deprived that I don't even know what's going on. To explain more... Back in the day, when I was all up into the Sims 2 legacies posted on the Sims 2 official story exchange scene, people would worry about their star ratings and the number of readers/commenters they had on Boolprop. And there were some people who had a ton of readers and who would be mentioned in nearly every post in every thread about favorite legacies and what legacies do you read and all that. And they could post up, like, two pics of a door in their game and it would hit the highest star rating possible in less than two hours. Now, I had my time. The first eight chapters of my first Sims story were the highest rated stories on the Exchange for a while. And I imagine I pissed people off with my neuroticism about the ratings and why one chapter was 4.74 and the other was 4.68 when they'd never had a chapter over 4 stars. But still... So every once in a while there would be a thread about ratings and popularity and newer less known writers would express a desire for more readers and higher ratings. I personally think that is a normal desire and not anything to be ashamed of. The popular writers, who had the ratings and the readers (and yeah, I was prejudiced because, in my eyes, their work did not have the objective quality to deserve said ratings and the ratings were entirely socially motivated and the hangers-on were hoping to increase their own ratings and readership) jumped down the throats of the new writers. It wasn't "write what you want to write". It wasn't "follow your voice and your story and your characters and your readers will find you". It was "Shut up. You are wrong to want readers." Dressed up a bit, because oh noes, we can't have such honesty here. Oh my, it gives me the vapors! Someone bring me my smelling salts! This is why I hate anonymous stuff, by the way. You know the vilest secrets come from people who are all happy shiny fake in public. Oh, to any "guests" out there who may remember what I'm talking about - I do imagine I was first on a couple people's suspect list for those Boolprop clique secrets, but I say what I gotta say under my username and where people can see it - before now everything I said on this issue was said in public on Boolprop. I don't do secrets. And the reason I used the sheep and the hypocrite language - I may not know why or understand, but I've picked up on something in years of participating in this community. Anyone with any belief in themselves is stomped the fuck down. Anyone who dares to think that they're good at something, that they have something worth sharing, that they matter and have value and worth, is punched and kicked and slammed until they stop moving. And we all have Stockholm syndrome and believe our captors and start doing it to ourselves after a while. So, years ago, I saw these new writers. They were young. They were hopeful. They were honest. They thought they had something worth sharing. I perhaps identified with them a bit. And then the vultures descended, and in cloying fake honey-sweet tones told them to shut up and sit down and keep their feelings to themselves. It's like... Way way back in the day, I participated on a forum which had a private board, and you gained access by being nominated and voted on. And occasionally threads about that would pop up. And the people already in the forum would be all "Oh, it shouldn't matter to you" and the brown-nosers, who clearly wanted in and actually considered it very important, would agree with the big dogs and be all "Yeah, you shouldn't want in!" It was just like that. It was all social politics and social status and pecking the eyes out of newcomers who were threats to the standing social order. And I so did not mean to derail the thread and go off on this, but the results from that first post that I saw in Beth's posts seemed to require that I go into detail and explain more what I meant. I don't even know why I brought it up, except that I am extremely sleep-deprived and upset and I think I'm getting sick and the talk about writing and readers brought all that back and I had some dim idea that I wanted to stand up against the idea that it's wrong to want readers. Because if it's wrong to want readers, why the hell are we publishing our stuff online in the first place? |
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Post by drew on Nov 30, 2010 19:55:17 GMT -5
Stacy said:
DREW, OMG!!!! I was not talking about you or anyone else here at all! I love you and you are not a sheep and you are not a hypocrite and you are awesome! I mean - you're the opposite of a sheep. Look at your posts before mine, where you talk about doing what you want and not caring about what people say.
Whew! I can put away my sheep shears! ;D
I pretty much knew you weren't, hence the laugh smiley on my comment. I feel what you are saying.
I also agree, if we didn't want feedback, we would make our story blogs private, or turn the comments off.
And I also have some experience with the circling vultures. They always smell the fresh meat.
*hugs*
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Post by drew on Nov 30, 2010 20:00:32 GMT -5
"I'm asking this because I noticed a lot of people in the other thread, and really just writers in general, will often say that they write for themselves - only for themselves. And if other people like it, then fine."That sounds like something I said, it may have been here, I certainly said it enough at my own blog. I realize it sounds selfish at first blush. But I think I was referring to making changes in plots and characters because someone (a reader) has requested it. For example, I got an email some months back, asking me to 'soften' my villain a bit, give him a romantic interest. I didn't. Long story short, this person no longer reads and comments, LOL! So I will continue to portray the characters in plots that interest me, not others. Oh dear, that does sound selfish. What-the-hell in the first place, villians are evil. They're not suppose to be soft! That's a load of crap any ways. Readers don't know the plot...at least we hope they don't get the full gist of everything until it hits them in the face. I've never had a reader tell me what I should do, but I'm sure I wouldn't take it very kindly either. When I said I wrote for both, specifically Sim stories for readers/viewers and prose for myself...I should have explained. Prose writing has no pictures; therefore, you have to expand your creativity in explaining details, expressions, stuff like we all know about. So writing in prose will eventually expand your writing capabilities in different techniques in explaining things. I've gone back to read my manuscripts from a year ago and go "wow, that totally needs a rewrite." So, where am I go with all of this? Writing for yourself is great. Though I do it for many different reasons, mostly writing for yourself has no pressure and you can continue to learn and expand perception in your own writing. It's like being comfortable in your own skin. My Sim stories have advertisement in...I believe now six different sites. Since they're all Sim sites (except this site, it's kinda both Sim and prose), I think it as only logical to advertise for my stories there. I don't advertise my prose writing (except here). It's for me, my pleasure, my everything. That was a little rambling, but oh well. You know, I actually paused for a few minutes and thought, "maybe I should soften him...give him a love interest..." Then I slapped myself silly. Threw myself in front of that moose to knock some sense into myself. Ultimately, I didn't change him. Now that I think about it, I amped up his villain factor. Those who read my story know I mean Ronan, I went all out to make him a real SOB. So maybe I should thank this person!! ;D You make a good point about the prose writing, I agree. And the no pressure. You will drive yourself crazy if you start to wring your hands over what people will think~ |
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Post by infinitygoddess on Nov 30, 2010 20:04:36 GMT -5
I'm generally of the mindset that I'm enjoying what I'm doing and if other people enjoy it, then all the better. Generally, for right now, writing is a hobby for me. I do hope to become a sci-fi writer who writes graphic novels and novels (have three books self-published already) and is able to do it for a living. However, I'm perfectly happy being a graphic designer as a day job for the time being.  |
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Post by celebkiriedhel on Nov 30, 2010 20:26:46 GMT -5
I get what you're saying Stacy  I think wanting readers... and writing FOR readers are two different things. And it's pretty much a given that we like to have readers, and are publishing our things online because we want people to read our stuff. Especially here. And no it's not wrong to want readers. And personally, reading through this thread, I can't see anywhere where it's been said that it's wrong to want readers. But I really don't think that wanting readers, and changing how we write or what we write for readers is the same thing. This is a bit of a touchy subject for me. I'll admit that right now. And this is because of the experiences that have brought me where I am from a writing point of view. It's been 6 years since I wrote anything that actually meant anything to me - this year, this nano is the first. And that's because I was told that I was an evil person for what I was writing, and that I needed to write more morally. I was told what stories I should write, what was acceptable. And it's taken me this long, to get up the courage to write what's in my heart. And the hardest thing, is that those people although they were friends - its also what my family would say. And part of the reason why I'm starting to write now, is because my mother is dying and that prohibition is going with her death. So readers to me - are dangerous things. If I wrote for them, I'd be writing moral, happy, fun writing that means nothing to me. It takes courage to write for myself. When I started putting up my sims stories to read - I put them up on my website, so that I didn't get comments. I didn't want to know from people that I was evil. Why did I put them up at all? That's a question I'm not entirely sure I know the answer to. But I think it was probably the same reason that I put my sim creations up for download - because they deserve it. And if someone got something from it that wasn't entirely bad - then that was good. Do I like praise? Of course I do. It's a natural part of our human psyche - everyone thrives on praise. That's what some readers can give you. And it's encouragement and recognition, and it does good stuff for your self-esteem. But to write solely for praise, is to water down what writing is - it's like reality TV, going for what entertains rather than for what is meaningful. (And no - I do NOT like reality TV). And I'm sorry if that seems harsh but it is who I am, when I write. When I'm truly writing, I'm writing for myself - what's in my heart. edit: And of course - there is nothing wrong with writing entertaining stuff either, if that's what you want to do. It's being forced to write it, that's wrong. |
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Post by Stacy on Nov 30, 2010 22:03:28 GMT -5
In my defense - my MBTI type profile says I'm terrible at dealing with criticism and I will have anger problems about it and be all grrr at people who I think are trying to be all hating on other people and judging and criticizing and suppressing them! So there!
*small print* Of course, it also says that's something I need to work on. */small print*
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