do you write for yourself or for your readers?

[celebkiriedhel]

Personally - I'm against putting in constructive criticism in comments unless it's asked for. It's like communication in any form of relationship - it may be constructive, but it's not necessarily welcome or appropriate.

I don't think we need to gush either. Just give an honest opinion about what we liked, or what we saw in it.

Gushing to me, is a bit false.

[laura]

Dec 4, 2010 18:53:06 GMT -5 @celebkiriedhel said:

Personally - I'm against putting in constructive criticism in comments unless it's asked for. It's like communication in any form of relationship - it may be constructive, but it's not necessarily welcome or appropriate.

I don't think we need to gush either. Just give an honest opinion about what we liked, or what we saw in it.

Gushing to me, is a bit false.

Yes, ditto this. Exactly. And I've wondered before how I would handle a truly critical response on my blog (because you guys are really just *never* very critical of me, lol!). On one hand, I would want to know that I was doing something wrong. On the other hand, I'm kind of just having fun with this story, and might not have put my absolute all into it, and I might get defensive of it.

I kind of think I would want to know though - but maybe privately instead? I really don't know about this one.

I never leave critical responses on Sim stories unless asked a specific question, because I do know that so many of us are just doing this for fun. Criticism should be asked for, I think.

I have my serious work though, which I expect complete and utter ruthless honesty with, because that's what I've asked of the people reading my serious work. I've put my all into it, and I'm prepared and expecting honest feedback.

Though even on LH, I'll sometimes ask a question of my readers on LH, if I want specific feedback on something. And then ruthless honesty is welcome, obviously. I hope you're all being honest with me when I ask, lol!

The only thing I have to disagree with is that sometimes I do need to gush, lol! Really, sometimes I just do. I can't contain it. But when I do, it's always 100% genuine

[tipix]

Dec 4, 2010 18:53:06 GMT -5 @celebkiriedhel said:

I don't think we need to gush either. Just give an honest opinion about what we liked, or what we saw in it.

Gushing to me, is a bit false.

I'd have to disagree with this point. I'm a big gusher, in person and online. I just can`t help myself! When something excites me the result tends to be a garble of exclamation points and adoration, but always heart-felt!

[thelunarfox]

Dec 4, 2010 19:20:35 GMT -5 @laura said:

Yes, ditto this. Exactly. And I've wondered before how I would handle a truly critical response on my blog (because you guys are really just *never* very critical of me, lol!). On one hand, I would want to know that I was doing something wrong. On the other hand, I'm kind of just having fun with this story, and might not have put my absolute all into it, and I might get defensive of it.

I kind of think I would want to know though - but maybe privately instead? I really don't know about this one.

I've had the same thought too about my stuff, lol. But I already know I wouldn't take criticism well. A friend of barely suggested that he had noticed some grammar errors while reading through, and I told him not to joke around with me like that! (Then I did tell him that typos don't count, but if he happened across them again he should probably tell me, lol.)

But we're never critical because you're good. I couldn't think of a thing I'd want to be critical about LH if I could. There's no way you'd have so many readers if you weren't just that good, especially considering you never actually advertised anywhere.

[sb]

I wouldn't criticize someone in a blog post even if she said she wanted it. I don't think I'd do it privately either, not unless it was in a critique forum of some kind. And even then, I'd have to know her, and I'd have to love her work and she would have to know I did.

There is nothing about LH to criticize. And Lunar is right, you wouldn't have so many readers if you couldn't keep their attention. You don't need to advertise. You are that good.

[celebkiriedhel]

Rambling Mode Activated:

Tipix - if you're a natural gusher - it isn't false. You're quite right to disagree with it for from your point of view. Me - I gusheth not neither do I enthuse - so gushing is false for me to do, except under exceptional circumstances like when I'm gob-smacked by Van doing something I was hoping for but wasn't expecting.

There is nothing about LH to criticize.

I disagree with this statement. A lot of criticism is not necessarily based on fact, but opinion and because of that even the most perfect writing will find someone somewhere that will criticise it, and in a constructive manner. Because of that, there is a certain amount of acceptance of your own voice that a writer needs, otherwise they can get disheartened.

There are things in LH that I think are done perfectly and I wouldn't criticise even if Laura asked me to, because basically I wouldn't find anything in it that would need to change. There are things in LH, that reflect Laura's world but do not reflect mine from a story point-of-view. If I was the sort of person who expected my world view to be the one everyone else had, I could criticise Laura's work on that. BUT, and here's the important thing - I don't because I know the difference. Generally - I'm more apologetic if I come off sounding critical, because I know that my world view is only one of many, and all are valid.

Criticism is not necessarily about grammar and spelling, it can also be about style and content too.

Which is why I think the best sort of reply you can give is telling the author what you love, and what you see in it. It gives them room to see what works, and when the reader is on the same page.

I suppose I look at this differently, because in my profession, it's common to have critical feedback ALL the time. In programming, we do the design - and it gets walkthrough to find the faults. Then we do the program - and the code is checked by others for faults. Then we do the testing of the program to make sure it works on it's own - and the test results are checked by others for faults. Then we do testing of the program to show that it works in the system, and the test results are checked by others for faults. Then finally the people we're doing the work for, test it to prove that it does the job and they look for faults. Because of this, you can become quite hardened quickly to criticism - it's about something that is other than you that is getting criticised - your work. But for most programmers when they start - they get very hurt, because they don't separate their work from themselves. They need a lot of support to cope with the criticism, and how to de-self out of their work. New ways of thinking about it.

I suppose, I see a lot of writers as I do with the new programmers. They need to learn how to cope with criticism, and need to be supported to be constructive about their work. (Am I being a bit self-righteous here? I don't know)

But even with programmers who have been doing it for years and are experts in their fields - it's just polite to ask them if it's ok to give them feedback if it's outside the expected feedback mechanisms. They always say yes - but then they are prepared mentally for it.

That why I don't hold back in the critique forum, when it's asked for - but I always explain exactly why I think something is not working. And I worry seriously if I think that the person hasn't coped with it. But I think that it's about being honest with it.

Constructive feedback with writing doesn't have to be negative, it can be positive too.

e.g. This works because you've made the sentence length fit the action. This is a strong passage, it creates a vivid image. etc.

But if I've asked for feedback, and you don't provide it - my natural low self-esteem assumes that it was so bad you don't want to say anything.

And yes I know that I need to work on the self-esteem issue.

I'm not sure if that answers all the questions, or indeed any of them.

/rambling mode off

[Stacy]

Qui - You are good! *hugs*

I've slowly been reading the other posts in this thread.

I don't think there's anything wrong with gushing, as long as it's sincere. And criticism - sometimes I take it well, sometimes I don't. Generally I take it well when I already agree with it, lol!

One person I respected on Boolprop back in the day gave me some constructive criticism, about transitions. Which if you read the legacy chapter I linked in the main character thread - I was desperately trying to stay away from birthday shots and that did make things jerky and weird. She was talking specifically about the second legacy, though - which involved almost all of Riverblossom Hills and cut frequently between a fair few subplots, so I did see her point.

I didn't specifically ask her for criticism, but I had expressed the desire for actual criticism as opposed to one star ratings in other threads. And she gave it some sugar to make it go down better - said she was harder on me because I was one of the better writers.

I have one friend who was also part of the old Sims 2 Boolprop culture, and he was the one who told me that "Criticism has no place in Sims culture". Made my mouth drop open in shock, that did. And then he said that it must be hard, being the only one who really wanted honesty.

I think this is all going back to that issue I have understanding "for fun" and "serious" and stuff like that. For me - this is my serious stuff. This is where I put my soul. And it really wasn't until a few months ago that I even began to understand that other people might see it as some silly hobby. And I'm still working on the idea that I shouldn't hold their work to my standards.

I really identified with Poe, lol - let me go find the quotes.

Quotes about Poe

“He [Poe] was like a wolf chained by the leg among a lot of domestic dogs.” — Arthur Ransome

“Some of the old vindictiveness against Poe still crops up occasionally in the Northern papers — partly because they hate the South and everything Southern, and partly because some of the old ‘mutual-admiration’ set still survives, and have never yet forgiven the man who told them the truth about themselves.” — William Hand Browne

Heh.

Back in Poe's day, everyone gave good reviews to everyone else's stuff and it was very "Scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" and everything. Then Poe came along and started spitting the truth in his reviews. That did not go over very well.

So, to sum up - I think sincere gushing is cool, and I think criticism is cool if it's asked for and polite and respectful. Me, personally - I'm cool with it even if I didn't specifically ask for it.

As for giving criticism - I only do specific criticism if it's asked for. But I may make general criticisms that apply to patterns I see across many stories in a certain genre in threads where I think it would be relevant or on my own blog, and that's what gets me into trouble.

[raquelaroden]

Kiri, your comparison of criticism in your field to criticism in writing strikes me as interesting, and I'll admit I don't know the exact kind of criticism you receive in that field, but it strikes me as being markedly different from the types of criticism that comes in writing. I can see how the initial decision on how to design a program would be somewhat like that, but the rest of it--the code checking and error checking--that seems so different because there really is a fact of the matter. Either your code will work or it won't, and either the different parts of the program will work together or they won't. It isn't like that in writing--people break the supposed "writing rules" all the time, and to great effect.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think it's so much harder to take criticism on writing because a) it seems far more personal, in most cases, and b) you're usually modeling your style, topics/plot, characters, etc., on something you personally like and are interested in. When you receive criticism on those things, it's harder not to take it personally because it feels like someone is criticizing the way your very mind works--the very ideas you have. It's also harder to take, because what is one person's idea of a bad sentence is another person's idea of eloquence. You can have one person read something and say, "That's a ridiculous way to describe that..." and another person say, "I totally think of it in that way, what a perfect description!" Like you said, a lot of criticism is based on opinion, and that's why it's harder to take--we're not sure why we should accept someone's opinion over our own, or over readers who like what we're doing. It seems like it really will only be helpful if you agree with it.

[drew]

I took down a couple of comments I made on the whole faking/gushing/criticism thing. I wasn't happy with the way I tried to explain my thoughts, did not come out the way I meant it at all. So, best thought I should delete them. I didn't do it in a hissy fit, or a state of pique, just a feeling of inadequacy in crafting my opinions.

I am fairly new to participating in a forum in any long term way, so in future, I will try and organize my thoughts before I post.

Cheers~

[celebkiriedhel]

just a feeling of inadequacy in crafting my opinions

me too - I deleted a comment after rachel's reply to mine - I realised my first comment was gobbledygook, but decided against trying to explain it better - because it just came out worse.

[sfe]

Dec 4, 2010 18:53:06 GMT -5 @celebkiriedhel said:

Personally - I'm against putting in constructive criticism in comments unless it's asked for. It's like communication in any form of relationship - it may be constructive, but it's not necessarily welcome or appropriate.

I agree that critisism shouldn't go in comments. And in my opinion, not even when it's asked for. Other viewers might not have spotted the weaknesses a more experienced eye might have spotted, so a personal message to the writer seems as a more appropriate way to give feedback. There's no need for the writer to loose her fans

Of course if others don't ask for an opinion on how good their writing is, it wouldn't be appropriate to criticise at all. The intentions when criticising should be to help, so if help isn't asked for, then probably we're not talking about somebody who tries to help, but somebody who tries to hurt and/or discourage.

Personally, I'm perfectly fine with constructive critisism, so long as it is done in a way that doesn't offend me. There are many ways in which you can say something, and how you choose to say it is very important. In machinima community I was member of a team meant to give constructive feedbacks. I never said to anybody that "you did that very poorly/it was awful"; Instead, I suggested improvements and people always seemed thankful, and in their next works I could see they indeed try to improve the specific weakness. And as regards the criticism I received, I improved a lot knowing my mistakes. I consider this important to know what people don't like about my work, and when I don't agree that something I do needs improvement, I just ignore it and accept that different people like different things.

Dec 5, 2010 8:16:08 GMT -5 @raquelaroden said:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think it's so much harder to take criticism on writing because a) it seems far more personal, in most cases....
.....
When you receive criticism on those things, it's harder not to take it personally because it feels like someone is criticizing the way your very mind works--the very ideas you have.

As a computer programmer, allow me to disagree. I don't know about Kiri, but to me programming is very personal. There are hundreds of ways in which you can create a program and it takes a lot of personal effort and creativity to do so. The solution is not always simple, and there are times where some programmers may not find a solution at all. So, I'm proud (and a total geek, hehe) when I create something. Sure, you don't create it for yourself, you create it for others so it is crucial that the others find it easy to use. But still, it is your creation, your 'baby'. Every programmer thinks differently, so a colleague who checks your program, might find things about your way of thinking that might make you feel totally worthless/stupid. So it is not like you won't feel bad no matter what they find out.

[laura]

Dec 5, 2010 0:57:32 GMT -5 @celebkiriedhel said:

There is nothing about LH to criticize.

I disagree with this statement. A lot of criticism is not necessarily based on fact, but opinion and because of that even the most perfect writing will find someone somewhere that will criticise it, and in a constructive manner. Because of that, there is a certain amount of acceptance of your own voice that a writer needs, otherwise they can get disheartened.

There are things in LH that I think are done perfectly and I wouldn't criticise even if Laura asked me to, because basically I wouldn't find anything in it that would need to change. There are things in LH, that reflect Laura's world but do not reflect mine from a story point-of-view. If I was the sort of person who expected my world view to be the one everyone else had, I could criticise Laura's work on that. BUT, and here's the important thing - I don't because I know the difference. Generally - I'm more apologetic if I come off sounding critical, because I know that my world view is only one of many, and all are valid.

Oh, you guys, lol! LH is far from perfect!

But Kiri, thank you for writing that. It's good to understand that sometimes the harshest and most passionately combative comments can come from a place of different world view conflicts. Somehow I run into these quite often, lol! I can't help that, and they can't help that either. And not everyone is openminded enough to realize that their own world view isn't the "rule". So thank you!

[raquelaroden]

Sfe: Like I admitted--I'm not familiar with exactly how it works. I can see that given there are lots of ways to create a program, it takes a lot of creativity to find a solution, and that there's more than one way to reach a solution (and thus your personal preferences and things like that will come into play when you're creating a program). If criticism about the way you program something can make you feel like something is wrong with the way you think, then I guess it is more like writing then I imagined.

[rad]

Wow, this is a great discussion, I just wish I had more time to think about it and contribute to it. In my day job I am critiquing work and having my own work critiqued all the time so I don't really like to offer critique to people who write for fun, unless it's in a specific critique forum. It makes me cringe when I see people trolling on blogs or critiquing people in an unwelcome manner. If a writer didn't ask for critique, don't barge in with it unwarranted! (Not that any of you do this, but I've seen it happen on several blogs).

I occasionally get people who don't like my characters (particularly my WYDC characters and their cheating, life-prolonging ways - but, you know, they have to do what they do for that challenge to work!) or who seem to want things to happen at a different pace than I'm going, but I wouldn't change what I do for them - they can always jump off the ride.

I agree with most of you, though, that comments pose questions or ideas I maybe haven't considered and these will often come into play later on.

And yeah, I write for an audience, and I write for my own amusement. I think it's difficult to write without both of those things coming into play.

[lepifera]

I once saw a TV interview of a very down-to-earth writer. To the question on why she would write poems, she replied, 'Just like I have to eat and shit everyday, I write'. There really aren't right or wrong motivations for writing.

I write because I feel compelled to. I want life to be more than a series of unrelated random occuring scenarios, and I need a story to string them together. Or it could be writing is only the resonance of a glass of water in response to the larger music of human experiences, and the writer is simply a messanger.

I know no set rules to judge a piece of creative writing or any other forms of art. Yet, if a writer does have a core message s/he wants to get across to her audience, then technically the story is only a success when the message carries across. In that sense, critiques on writing techniques, style and grammer cannot be easily tossed aside.

Writing critiques and readers' responses to the creative work are different things though. Different people already react and respond to the same event in life differently. A reader's responses to a story will depend on the lenses he is wearing. A writer would go schizo trying to sell his/her work to everyone, not to mention that many already have a hard time staying sane while holding onto non-mainstream world view that is nontheless true to him, lol.

[pinkfiend1]

I write my poems for myself. Nobody is ever allowed to read them unless I've written one particulary for someone. There like my heart and soul, everything that is me. The only occasion I've shown the collection to my friends it hurt too much when they didn't like them, even if I knew they were rubbish it still hurt.

As for stuff on the internet I'm not so bothered about. It is written for an audience and I suppose in some way I let the fact that people may read it influence me to try and make it more exciting or dramatic. Although usually I do dream about the characters and the how their lives get mucked up which affected by that, which tends to be based on how I see them in game.
I think though that I need to be constructivly critized on the more story based things, because I am far from perfect, and I have this habit of losing interest in the thread of a story and not following it through and completing it properly or rushing it just to get it fiinished. But I don't like criticising people, I may think criticisms of people but don't like putting them into words.